I LOVE YA

by mormon 4 life 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Double Edge

  Rod P...

  My point about the Mountain's Meadow Massacre was not to downplay morman involvement, which would be absurb, considering that almost 100% of the population was morman, rather the issue/mystery (whatever) has always been - "Is there any evidence to prove that the church hierarchy, i.e. Brigham Young was involved?"... and the answer, concluded by morman and non-morman investigators alike is "no, there isn't any evidence to prove this". There are a few problems with Sandra Tanners' (a very anti-morman writer) book... and that rest with the information that she left out. Let's take a look at one of your quotes:

  "May 25 [1861] A very cold morning much ice on the creek. I wore my great coat & mittens. We visited the Mt.Meadows Monument not up at the burial place of 120 persons killed by Indians in 1857. The pile of stone was about twelve feet high but beginning to tumble down. A wooden cross is placed on top with the following words, Vengeance is mine and I will repay saith the Lord. Pres.Young said it should be Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little" (Mountain Meadows Massacre, p.182)

  What is the "vengeance" Brigham Young is talking about? What Sander's Tanners book left out, and what others have identified are a couple of interesting facts. One is that within the Fancher party were a few individuals who, when they reached Salt Lake City to be resupplied, bragged that they were part of the group who a few years before were involved in massacring morman families at Hahn's Mill, back east. They also bragged to have one of the guns that killed Joseph Smith. This was not only arrogant but was a very stupid thing to do when trying to get supplies. Brigham Young apparently told the mormans not to supply this wagon train. Rumor spread that in retaliation, as the party was moving south through Utah, they were poisoning the watering wells of the mormans. The southern mormans decided to take vengence and western justice in their own hands. A courier was sent north to Brigham Young asking how they should proceed. Brigham Young wrote back that they were to let the party pass, untouched. The horseback messenger arrived too late. The massacre happened, and there was initially a coverup.

  One of the best, objective books written on the subject was by Juanita Brooks. This is what one reader from Amazon.com had to say:

  The Mountain Meadows Massacre by Juanita Brooks, 1991 Reader Review at Amazon.com: Juanita Brook's book was objective on both sides, pointing out the atmosphere among the LDS people at the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre while also showing the inconsistencies in some of the LDS explanations. If there is one clear point in the book it is that in times of prejudice and war, even good people will do horrific things. This does not justify the massacre but does attempt to explain the paranoia and fear which existed in Southern Utah at that time. I find Juanita's research to be very fair and quite accurate. It parallels the research done by Josiah F. Gibbs in his book which was printed in 1910, much closer to the time of the massacre. Mr. Gibbs is not LDS and it is obvious he does not like the LDS, but certainly his book verifies that the research which Juanita performed was very accurate. Having read many of the books and information regarding this massacre, I believe Juanita has done her research well and attempted to get the truth out. One painfully obvious truth which comes out is the quickness with which the U.S. Government took action in trying to find the guilty parties. Perhaps if they had taken such quickness with the killings and mobbings upon the LDS in Missouri, Illinois and other states, this massacre could have been avoided.

  Any massacre of innocent people, whether in Utah or Missouri/Illinois, can not be justified. Those historical incidents happened more than a century ago. I believe those guilty have long ago faced a Supreme justice that this poor world could never provide.
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  barry

  The Mormons have a great Choir my Dad had the recording of it and played it every week before going to church. My dad isnt Mormon.
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  Double Edge

  Ah yes, one of the "positives" about the mormans, their famous choir. I love there rendition of "Battle Hymn of the Republic".
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  Rod P

  Double Edge,

  Sorry, I just now discovered your post above. I'm a little busy right now, but will definitely get back to you on it.

  In the meantime, I want you to know that I am not "out to get the Mormons or the Mormon Church." I did not pick and choose who I was going to quote from on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I am aware of Sandra Tanner being an anti-Mormon writer. I am also aware of other books on this topic, which have far more details than what the Tanners have written on the subject. The article was simply selected because of its overall brevity, as well as its connection with her ancestry. I also know that the Tanners have written a lot more about this incident than the article I quoted, so I am not ready to accept the idea that she may have deliberately withheld information in order to bias the story in her favor. So I will have a second look at greater length to see whether she has covered the points that Juanita Brooks has brought to light.

  In the final analysis, the Massacre should never have happened, and I hold the leadership at the top responsible to a fair extent. If there had not been the kind of sermons and doctrines being preached to the members at that time, and fueling the type of mentality that was present, I have my doubts this tragedy would have occurred in the first place.

  And if Brigham Young really did say "It should be Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little." then in my books, that is a tacit admission of approval for the deed, rather than a condemnation of it.

  One more thing, I am equally appalled at the wickedness and injustices that were inflicted on the Mormon people back in Illinois and Missouri. And yes, I do believe they were entitled to defend themselves. But the Massacre in Utah is not excusable on those grounds. Two wrongs don't make a right. And Lee should not have been executed by the state for the deed, and then later the Church reinstate his full standings in the Church, particularly if Lee took part in the Massacre, and the Church at the same time considers it wrong and that cold-blooded murders were committed here. That fact cannot be dismissed or glossed over with words.

  .......to be continued.

  Rod P.
• 

  Rod P

  Double Edge,

  Now that I have had the chance to review the material available on Tanner's website on the matter of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, I offer the following:

  First of all, the part I quoted from her was actually a rather small part of the whole thing. Many sources other than her own articles are also indexed and readily available for all to see, including that of Juanita Brooks, which you hold as "one of the best, objective books written on the subject."

  In view of that, let me quote an observation of Juanita Brooks in her book (p.219-220), which, by the way, I took of Tanner's web-site:

  "While Brigham Young and George A. Smith, the church authorities chiefly responsible, did not specifically order the massacre, they did preach sermons and set up social conditions which made it possible....Brigham Young was accessory after the fact, in that he knew what had happened, and how and why it happened. Evidence of this is abundant and unmistakable, and from the most impeccable Mormon sources.

  Knowing then, why did not President Young take action against these men?... He did have the men chiefly responsible released from their offices in the church following a private church investigation, but since he understood well that their acts had grown out of loyalty to him and his cause, he would not betray them into the hands of their common "enemy"....Someone assuredly warned all the participants, so that for many yars they were all able to evade arrest.

  The church leaders decided to sacrifice Lee only when they could see that it would be impossible to acquit him without assuming a part of the responsibility themselves....this token sacrifice had to be made. Hence the farce which was the second trial of [John D.] Lee. The leaders evidently felt that by placing all the responsibility squarely upon him, already doomed, they could lift the stigma from the church as a whole."

  In Hubert Howe Bancroft's "History of Utah 1540 - 1886" Chapter XX The Mountain Meadows Massacre, we see the following words of John D. Lee, the only man sentenced for this entire crime, who is about to be executed by firing squad:

  "The marshall now read the order of the court, and, turning to the prisoner, said: "Mr.Lee, if you have anything to say before the order of the court is carried into effect, you can do so now." Rising from the coffin, he looked calmly around for a moment, and then with unfaltering voice repeated in substance the statements already quoted from his confession. "I have but little to say this morning." he added. "It seems I have to be made a victim; a victim must be had, and I am the victim. I studied to make Brigham Young's will my pleasure for thirty years. See now what I have come to this day! I have been sacrificed in a cowardly, dastardly manner. I cannot help it; it is my last word; it is so. I do not fear death; I shall never go to a worse place than I am now in. I ask the Lord my God, if my labors are done, to receive my spirit." A Methodist clergyman, who acted as his spiritual advisor, then knelt by his side and offered a brief prayer, to which he listened attentively. After shaking hands with those around him, he removed a part of his clothing, handing his hat to the marshal, who bound a handkerchief over his eyes, his hands being free at his own request. Seating himself with his face to the firing party, and with hands clasped over his head, he exclaimed: "Let them shoot the balls through my heart. Don't let them mangle my body" The words of command was given; the report of rifles rang forth on the still morning air, and without a groan or quiver the body of the criminal fell back lifeless on his coffin. God was more merciful to him than he had been to his victims." End quote.

  And so the words of a dieing man now ring in my ears. Why would John D. Lee speak with such conviction just a few minutes before his death? What does a dieing man have to lose? Why would he lie? And if he was speaking the truth, then tell me the leaders of the Church, including Brigham Young, did not have some responsibility for this whole murderous affair?

  Anyway, I do not want to drag this whole thing out any further, because I do not to spend all my time "picking on the Church". But I do want people to know why it is that I am no longer Mormon, and why I don't believe it anymore.

  Finally, I will reiterate once more, that I bear no animosity or hatred towards the Mormon people as individuals. There are many things about them I admire and respect, and by far the majority of them are honest, decent and hard-working people who are sincere in their beliefs. It's the sytem and the doctrines that I do battle with. By the way, I still listen to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and I consider them one of the best in the world. When I hear them sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Handel's Messiah I still get chills up my back.

  Regards,

  Rod P.