JW Pedophile Goes To Jail (page 2)

Grunt

I am against ecclesiastical privilege. To me, if a crime, a felony, has been committed then anyone that knows anything about it except a person's lawyer, should be required to come forth. Giving felons someone to talk to is not high on my list. I also think that those who hide the facts and cover over crimes should be treated as what they are, collaborators. God help the children.

Maximus

:: I do however think it is their role to encourage and/or insist the victim go to the authorities and seek professional help.

I've had opportunity to speak to men who collectively have dealt with thousands of cases through the years, including my own experience. Hip, this is no lead balloon, it's the point on which everyone except the Society completely agrees. You have singled out what is so simple yet so ignored.

The JW judicial apparatus is just not equipped to deal with these cases, no matter how well meaning the elders. They have been trained to be investigators, given procedures, but humanity and common sense seem to go out the door in their attempt to "protect the organization" at any cost.

Granted some have done a very fine job, but when you know the true story of victims in therapy for years, with lives crimped and hollow as the direct result of bungling in the name of religion--that's extremely painful, and testimony to incompetence and inadequacy. The very approach to the issue by the untrained is so coarse, so unenlightened, so misguided, so damaging.

Society as a whole has struggled to find better ways. The Watchtower Society must pull its head out of the sand and recognize them.

Here's a problem: In another thread I speak of GB contention of God as Revealer of secrets in his own good time, and the FDS not running ahead, waiting on Jehovah, and so on, for his due time.

How come God has apparently enlightened Christendom on so many issues BEFORE the Society comes around to accepting them?

Don't worry, Mommy Dearest, the public is soon going to have opportunity to understand the "ecclesiastic privilege" issue in full measure, by seeing for themselves its fruitage. What the Society fears is just one Elian Gonzalez story that captures America.

Stay tuned.

Maximus

outnfree

To me, this article is disappointing, because it does not make it clear to the averaged reader that the defense attorneys were in any way linked to the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society. Is there some way to prove this? and to bring it out by writing to the AP or letters to the editor wherever this is picked up locally?

I, too, agree that until the fact that Jehovah's Witness elders are NOT clergy by their own publications' numerous vitriolic assaults against the notion of a clergy class and the interpretation that Christendom's clergy class = the "man of lawlessness" spoken about in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, there is likely no way around clergy-penitent privilege being invoked in similar cases by the Society on behalf of its elders.

While I rejoice that the Society's money has been wasted on the defense of this multiple child molester, I am hoping that someone, somewhere is working on a challenge to the right of the WTBTS to argue that admissions made in private judicial committees (which privacy THE SOCIETY'S RULES require and enforce even when one would like to bring a friend, family member or other witness along) are in any way similar to the formal confession made in the Roman Catholic church, for example.

The Society is speaking out of both sides of its mouth. There can BE no clergy-penitent privilege if there IS no clergy and all are on equal footing as fellow "ministers" at baptism.

Yes, hippi, metatron, and others are correct in saying that these untrained, unpaid volunteers are in no way the equal of the trained clergy elsewhere. And every thinking person knows that when someone is abused or even just thinks they've been abused (delusional thinking is possible, of course), they need professional advice and care. It should be AUTOMATIC that the elders refer such ones to competent medical practitioners. And it should ALSO be automatic that alleged child abuse be reported to secular authorities for a professional criminal investigation - no matter WHAT the state law demands. It is a MORAL issue and thus should be dealt with MORALLY by an Organization which claims to have such high MORAL standards!

Phew! I could go on... but I won't. You all know this all too well, I think, and I'm preaching to the converted! LOL

Take care, all!

outnfree

peterstride

Well said OutNfree!

Peter STride
Toronto, Canada

Jeremy Bravo

Maximus,

Here's a problem: In another thread I speak of GB contention of God as Revealer of secrets in his own good time, and the FDS not running ahead, waiting on Jehovah, and so on, for his due time.
How come God has apparently enlightened Christendom on so many issues BEFORE the Society comes around to accepting them?

That is an excellent point that I have not yet seen made on this board (maybe it has been I dunno).

A question I (and I know many others) wonder is exactly what is going throught the minds of the WT leaders right now. Do they feel an assault on their fortress? Do they honestly believe that they'll be able to continue their ways? Do they even have any idea what is being taught to the congregations?? I would LOVE to spend a day as a fly on the wall at HQ.

So many questions......

Jer.

NotBlind

I've found it interesting that the Society PR Dept. has always said that they will 'not shield an offender from being punished by Caesar', which sounds nice until one realizes that they are not, by means of such a statement, offering to notify the authorities, EVEN WHEN THE OFFENDER HAS ALREADY CONFESSED!

Even more shocking is that they won't even testify when subpoenaed. As far as the elders were concerned, it wasn't an allegation; it was a confession.

Bill, reading this article shows that the elders will say one thing out of one corner of their collective mouth to the congregation (which may even be 'technically' correct, albeit misleading), but they will reveal their true intentions to others. Thanks for posting it.

Of course, my question is: WHO WERE THE ELDERS TRYING TO PROTECT by withholding this testimony?

Sam Beli

Max, you said: "Anybody want to hazard a guess as to how much money this has cost the Watchtower Society to protect "ecclesiastical privilege"?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"

I don’t understand. Were the defense lawyers “society lawyers” or privately hired ones. If the latter I can understand the huge expense, but some have implied that these are from the Brooklyn stable of lawyers, the nearly “free” guys that work for room and board at the Columbia Heights or similar facility.

Just trying to clear up the picture.

Sam Beli

hippikon

I agree with others such as metatron Untrained elders (window washers) don’t rank as ministers with the rights ecclesiastical privilege. –What happens in countries where JWs are not recognised as a religion?

However “Giving felons someone to talk to” is another avenue to exposing them and getting help for the victims – If the privilege is handled correctly

hippikon

First Priority – Learn of a situation
Second Priority – Stop the abuse (No more victims)
Third Priority – Help the victims
Fourth Priority - Punish / Rehabilitate (if possible) the perpetrator

Kismet

I do not know the details of this exact case but having worked in the legal dept I know the standard procedure.

If they followed it, here is what likely transpired:

Victims lawyers contact elders asking for them to testify. they contact brooklyn legal.

Brooklyn Legal sends lawyer a letter citing ecclesiatic privilege. Victim lawyer issues a subpoena to local elders demanding their appearance and testimony. Brooklyn sends one of their Legal eagles to New Hampshire to argue it before the court.

The brooklyn lawyer is not representing the defendant. They are representing the local elders. Any representation of the now convicted offender was done by a private lawyer.

This is the same situation as in child custody cases. The Scoiety lawyers only get involved in the issues of religion. In most cases the Jw parent has to hire private counsel (willing to work with Society of course) to handle issues of support etc.

The local congregation would house the Society legal team and provide meals for them. After the case finished the Society would let the congregation know of the costs nvolved and 'strongly encourage' them to scrape the funds together and donate them to the society.

So while they would not defend the accused they did in essence help the defense team but refusing to testify.

Just trying to keep things accurate.

kismet

JW Pedophile Goes To Jail

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