Is pedophilia an unforgivable sin?

by cnn77 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • waiting
    waiting

    Lady Lee,

    Thank you for giving such an easy-to-read description of a child molester within a family arrangement. You described my father quite well.

    When I went into therepy, I was under the impression that he was quite the ignorant man - that my mother ran the house. After talking about it with my therepist, and then with my husband, another picture evolved, and is more reasonable.

    My mother was the mouthpiece, the front. My father controlled her - and everything else in the house. He was a quiet man - given to quiet, controlled rages of violence and rape.

    Was he mentally ill? Perhaps. Evil? Perhaps. Controlling and capable of controlling his own impulses up to a degree - or time period? Absolutely. Imh - and unprofessional - opinion, he was a psychopath or sociopath (not sure of the fine differences) and didn't really comprehend, or care, about the pain he inflicted. His impulses were his primary impulses. He had a close friend just like him - and they fed into each other's degradations.

    Hey y'all

    As to the question of pedophiles/child rapists. Not all are the same - and it's a big mistake to lump them together. According to figures presented before - most will be repeat offenders. But there is a group of persons who just "fall into it" by circumstances.

    Such as wife working late for an extended time period. Father or step father alone with teenager.....etc. etc. It may be a like a strange - and wrong - affair, doomed to hurtful failure. But it doesn't mean that same man will be on the hunt for every child in his home and neighborhood for the rest of his life.

    As for forgiveness, about 10 years ago, even therepists were still discussing whether it was necessary for a victim to forgive their molester so they could move on. Some felt it was imperative - like the 12 step program.

    I believe foregiveness should be a private matter as it may take years/decades to achieve - if ever. But that doesn't mean that the victim/survivor can't move on. Like Lady Lee brought out - two different subjects.

    waiting

  • Mommie Dark
    Mommie Dark

    waiting said, "But there is a group of persons who just "fall into it" by circumstances.

    Such as wife working late for an extended time period. Father or step father alone with teenager.....etc. etc. It may be a like a strange - and wrong - affair, doomed to hurtful failure. But it doesn't mean that same man will be on the hunt for every child in his home and neighborhood for the rest of his life."

    I used to believe this. I believed my father was one of these. Then after I came out of secrecy and told my sibs about Dad, the truth came out: I was not his first victim. The extenuating 'circumstances' that I had used to excuse/forgive his behavior were proved entirely SPECIOUS. I was not his first victim. My oldest sister had been his victim right up until he transferred his attentions to me, which happened on the eve of her wedding. (He followed his pattern and quit trying to get at me when I became engaged. Apparently he only wanted untouched girlflesh...)The climate of silence and the blame-the-victim mentality kept her from telling and kept all those who knew or suspected from doing anything when they knew he was at it again with me. Besides, Daddy was such a NICE man, a GOOD man, who would ever believe HE would do anything so dirty and furtive?

    Nearly twenty years later, he started in on his granddaughters. He volunteered to babysit while the parents were out of town getting cancer therapy for the mother, and used the time to play his nasty little hand games.

    Pedophiles are like cannibals. Get a taste of kid flesh, and no other meat is ever sweet enough. I no longer believe any one of them ever just 'falls into it.' It's a conscious choice. My dad used to tell me I looked just like my dead mother, as if that made him unable to control his actions. All the time he was acting out a pattern of behavior that was familiar and obviously thrilling for him; the blissful leer on his face is etched in my mind forever. I won't believe he 'fell into' that out of anything but free choice. That 'helpless victim of circumstance' bullshit is IMO another weaselly out these pervs use to excuse their nastiness when they get caught. In my case I got blamed for attracting his attention just by looking like Mom!

    MY father is paralyzed and tube fed in a nursing home a thousand miles away from me. I was horrified when a psychiatrist said to me, 'GOOD!' when she heard this. Lately that horror has turned to satisfaction. There may not really be a god, but sometimes justice does out. I will not forgive that rat bastard for stealing my innocence. I'm satisfied that he has suffered and still suffers every day. Our balance sheet is now even. His cosmic debt is still way huge though, considering that there are at least three other victims of this perv walking around blaming themselves for 'attracting' his attentions.

  • cnn77
    cnn77

    I fail to see why society should forgive maggots that have totally destroyed peoples lives.

    While I understand that it is beneficial for the victim to forgive or let go if it enables them to move beyond this ugly issue I think it is actually weak and pathetic that society feels that these animals can be free to continue roaming after they are known to be what they are.

    How many times does a pedophile have to do it again before society says enough? I have been told that we are civilized now and do not use ancient forms of justice. My response is "Yes, it is very civilized to allow more children to have the terror and the pain. We are big hearted because we give pedophiles another chance".

    That is my view of society. But since we are told repeatedly that we are living in the power of the wicked one and that worldlings are evil (sidebar: how many times have you had 1 Cor 15 verse 33 read to you? I bet I have had it read close to 1000 times - I hate that scripture).

    So the Witnesses are much better than the low-life world after all they are God's chosen people. Well then why do we tolerate pedophiles? Why do we spout crap like "it is God's place to judge" and "only God can read the heart"?

    I am through with this nonsense. I sick of having stupid people who are window washers and job-jumpers acted as "princes over the earth". If someone is caught like Leo Greenlees supposedly was how can the parents of his victim be so whimpish and simply accept his being reassigned? We all know why. It is out of a false loyalty to an organization. They have been told to be loyal and toe the line or else they will die. This is the ultimate mind-control. This situation is exactly the same way a pedophile makes his victim keep silent. It is well established that pedophiles threaten their victims with harm or tell the child that if they speak out that the pedophile will hurt those who the child loves unless the child remains silent.

    Well, the victims and the families of the victims are treated that way by the pedophile and then they are treated the same way by the congregation too. Families are told that if they speak out about this crime then they will lose the favor of God and ultimately they will be outside of God's chosen organization and thus can only expect death at Armageddon. And we still think we are not a cult heh? Do we still ridicule David Koresh's followers? Didn't they have the same mind-control being used on them too?

    The ultimate mind control is to make someone believe that their disobedience to your word will result in their death or the death and hurt of their loved ones. But I guess that's not a description of the JW's after all John 13 verse 34 and 35 has shown who they are!!

  • waiting
    waiting

    I'm no professional - but I try to read a variety of material on this subject, since I grew up with it. I found these following articles on Randy Watters' site:

    .. http://www.exjws.net/sexabuse/index.htm

    Sexual Abuse and Child Abuse Among Jehovah's Witnesses
    Under the heading: Abusers

    SEX OFFENDER TREATMENT

    DOES IT WORK? IS IT WORTH IT?

    This can be a controversial subject. What constitutes success? Do we look only at sexual reoffenses, or also at related (compulsive) behaviors like alcoholism, drugs, gambling, etc.? What about other crimes - burglary, assaults, etc.? Do we look at the probationary period only, or is post treatment considered? If post, how long? How do we get data? Self report? Crime reports? Family follow-up?
    How hard do we look for failure? Do we rely only on crime reports or do we do a confidential study where we annually polygraph people for ten years following treatment? How do we count treatment drop outs in such a study - as treated offenders, untreated offenders, or as a separate group?

    No one expects zero recidivism, so how much does a program have to reduce reoffenses to call itself successful?

    Given all the difficulties, here are some things we do know.
    Barry Maletzky, MD and Kevin McGovern, Ph.D. of The Sexual Abuse Clinic of Portland Oregon followed about 5000 offenders treated in their clinic and similar clinics between 1973 and 1990 using behavior oriented methods. About 3700 of these were pedophiles -770 were exhibitionists and the remainder were referred for a variety of other paraphilias. Criteria for "success" included:

    No re-arrest
    Self report of no maladaptive sexual behaviors
    Reduced deviant arousal maintained post - treatment as verified on penile plethysmograph
    "Significant other" ratings of patient behavior

    Using these stringent measures to follow some men for as long as 17 years post treatment, success was achieved with 94.7% of heterosexual and 86.4% of homosexual pedophiles. Rapists showed 73.5% success, exhibitionists and public masturbators about 92% , with men referred for various other paraphilias ranging from 100% for zoophiliacs to 80% for frotteurs. These data do not represent a controlled study, but the sample is large and with success criteria as stringent as they were, the data gives strong indication that treatment is effective for a great many offenders.

    A June 1991 report to the State of Washington legislature also supports community treatment as a viable alternative for sex offenders. The report covers 613 probation eligible offenders sentences between January 1985 and July 1986. Three hundred thirteen of these actually received probation sentences while 300 were sent to prison. Both groups were followed. The probationers had significantly lower re-arrest rates and conviction rates in all crime categories. The study concluded that, generally speaking, probationary sentences did not place the community at undue risk and offered a cost - effective alternative to prison.

    An Oregon study of sex offender monitoring using polygraphy indicated dramatic success having offenders complete their probationary periods without reoffenses.

    In 1999 Margaret Alexander, Ph.D. (Oshkosh, Wis. Correctional Facility) examined no less than 424 studies. After eliminating most of them because they were poorly done she presented an analysis of the remaining 79 studies covering 10,988 offenders with some being followed as long as ten years post treatment. (Sexual Abuse; A Journal of Research and Treatment, 11(2) ) Here are some of her findings.

    Over all, treated offenders reoffended at a rate of 11%, untreated at 17.6%

    True incest offenders have lower reoffense rates than other child molesters. (5.3% with 5-year follow-up without treatment, no recidivism with treatment, compares to 17.8% treated and 25% untreated for non-incestuous child molesters.)

    When subjects were followed for as long as ten years, the "treatment effect" weakened over time, but even in the tenth year, treated offenders reoffended less untreated men.

    Men treated before 1980 (more traditional methods) reoffended at a rate of 12.8%. while men treated after 1980 (present day methods) reoffended at 7.4% (1993 data – not included in article)

    Also in 1999, Grossman, Martis and Fichtner presented an analysis of Medline literature and concluded that offenders treated with anti-androgen and / or cognitive-behavioral therapy showed a robust treatment effect in the neighborhood of 30%. (Psychiatric Services, 50(3) )

    Data from a variety of sources show that a "some treatment" is not better than none – treatment dropouts reoffend at the same rate as untreated offenders.

    None of this represents true controlled studies. Such experiments are under way in California and Vermont using inpatient populations and preliminary data are promising, but samples are so small that really meaningful data will not be available until the year 2005. Even then we will not necessarily be able to generalize to out patient programs. Controlled out patient studies may never be done because of reluctance to have matched controls at large in the community without any treatment. Even the prison studies in CA and VT may never be completed, due to recent funding cutbacks.

    Robert Prentky, Ph.D. (Bridgewater. Mass. Correctional Facility) developed a cost effectiveness model for "success." He suggested comparing the cost of prosecuting a single reoffense, incarcerating the offender, and treating one additional victim to the cost of meaningfully treating an offender during his initial incarceration. According to his figures, the Bridgewater program is cost effective if it reduces reoffenses by 11%, it. When Janice Marques applied his model to California she arrived at a 14% cutoff.

    CONCLUSIONS:

    Given available data, it appears that out patient programs do much better than 11 - 14% offense reduction. In fact, it does not seem unreasonable to assume we reduce reoffenses by a third, that we teach offenders some empathy, so that they treat others better in non-sexual ways as well, and that we make a significant contribution to their social functioning. (reduce non-sexual crimes, improve employment performance, etc.)

    The United States already locks up a greater percentage of its people than any western nation while California, with about 10% of the country's population accounts for about 14% of the prison population. Under theses circumstances, strict conditions of probation, close monitoring and quality treatment paid for by the offenders themselves is clearly the most promising alternative.

    Ron Kokish, BCD, MFT
    ***************************************

    According to this article - and studies referenced - incestuous child abusers can be rehabilitated. Even if not treated - not all reoffend. The same studies indicate this is true of molesters in general. Not all kill, maime, torture, and continue molesting/raping for their entire lives.

    All, however, are committing a cruel crime against children.

    waiting

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hello MD,

    I'm sorry for your family's terrible price for being born to your father.

    My father died of cancer - suffered terribly for a year. I was talking to a childhood friend of mine who knew me well (too bad I don't have those memories) who is also a nurse. She asked me if my father suffered before dying. I said yes - and she said "Good! The bastard deserved to suffer." Like you, I was shocked at first.

    I think survivors have a hard time seeing their own anger - but when other people show it - their anger surprises us. Another oddity, eh?

    My father ran the whole gammut of violent, sexual perversions - me being witness/participant to most of them. In no way do I forgive him. However, I don't think about it 100 times a day like I did 10 years ago. I can talk about it and not fall to pieces. I can do a lot of things.

    The only way I can visualize him is like an alien - I just cannot understand what made him "tick." I've learned I can just walk away. I don't need all my memories, all the understanding. I can just live anyway.

    The professionals I've seen have mostly agreed that they didn't think my dad was mentally ill from my history about him. More likely a sociopath and/or like the Nazi SS - capable of having two sides and not being unduly bothered by either interferring with the other side.

    But I think my dad was a somewhat rare alien specimen - kinda topped the charts on savageness. And the therepists/psychiatrists I've seen tend to agree - he was a quiet savage.

    waiting

  • philo
    philo

    Waiting, thanks for your balanced remarks. I always read what you have to say on this subject.

    There's a big row in the UK at the moment, over a 'current affairs' TV satirical spoof of the media's coverage of pedophilia. I thought it was brilliant, as it threw water on the fires of the fanatical witch hunters, but still kept the main subject in play, pedophilia. It seems the most vocal opinion, however, has come from opponents of the programme.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/tv_and_radio/newsid_1462000/1462692.stm

    philo

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey philo,

    Thank you - I always, always, hesitate being middle of the road - because it's a damnable place to be. Randy Watters' site has grown to be an excellent one showing a variety of articles. Not all in agreement with each other, thus, presenting both sides.

    I'm going to post another one - hope y'all go visit there?

    Sexual Abuse & Child Abuse Among Jehovah's Witnesses

    Abusers, Batterers, and Offenders
    .. http://www.exjws.net/sexabuse/index.htm

    OUTCOME RESEARCH

    Where Is It?

    We reviewed Volumes 1, 2, and 4 of Sage Publications 1995 "VIOLENCE" AND ABUSE ABSTRACTS." (misplaced #3 - sorry! It's probably not very different.) There's a section in each issue headed, "Psycho-therapeutic Intervention and Treatment." We found 52 abstracts under that heading. Four described outcomes for victim treatment in measurable terms.

    A study of group treatment for sexually abused boys showed mixed results when compared to controls.

    A study of treatment for female victims of battering showed improvement using a pretest, post test design, but no controls and no direct measures.

    A study compared two treatment methods for battered women; grief resolution counseling and feminist counseling. The grief resolution group improved, the feminist group didn't. ("Feminist" approaches dominate the field)

    One abstract described a chapter in a book and cited <studies.htm> indicating that parents, not therapists are a sexually abused child's most valuable resource. It was suggested that supportive services to help non offending parents overcome obstacles impeding their ability to be understand and supportive their children might be a more effective means of helping sexually abused children than psychotherapy for the children themselves. (Most states have Victim Restitution Funds to pay for victim therapy including therapy for non-offending parents, but not for supportive social services to assist the parents)

    A few of the other 47 items were theoretical, suggesting how outcome research should be done. The bulk of material reviewed books, parts of book, and journal articles telling us all the wonderful and brilliant ways some therapists are treating abuse victims and suggesting that other therapists do the same. We found little or no regard for rational measurement of the actual outcomes of all that commitment, creative energy and money. There were in fact, more hard cover books on how to do treatment than there were journal articles measuring whether all this treatment helps anyone at all. Personally, we found it frightening.

    When we perused the same three issues for articles about treating the people who do the victimizing, the picture was better. Roughly half the books and articles appeared to be anecdotal and theoretical. The remaining half described specific aspects of offender personalities in measurable terms or examined and compared the results of specific treatment approaches. In the 1980's, this kind of research led to the virtual abandonment of psychodynamic treatment of sex offenders in favor of cognitive - behavioral approaches that have proved more <fruitful.htm>. Before that, as early as the 1950's and 60's, outcome research showed the futility of psychodynamic treatment of delinquents and highlighted more hopeful results with the "therapeutic community," or "guided group interaction" model that is now so widely used.

    Why is offender treatment so much more scientifically refined than treatment available to victims? We, as a community and a society, tend to feel sympathetic concern for victims, whom we see as hapless but deserving. We are willing to pay for their treatment with government funds, charitable contributions, and insurance dollars. With money so widely available, therapists don't have to be particularly accountable. So long as a victim enjoys or somehow appreciates the therapeutic hour, relatively few questions are asked.

    In contrast, offenders are viewed as evil and undeserving. Society is reluctant to do anything for them, so offender therapists have traditionally had to demonstrate they are doing something to them - that they are changing behavior. "Cost Effectiveness," comparing the dollars saved by treatment through crime reduction to the dollars spent on that treatment, is a currently popular model for deciding whether offenders will receive treatment. In other words, unlike victim therapists, offender therapists have to demonstrate results to get paid.

    The paradox is that, although we are much more concerned for victims of crimes than for criminals, those few criminals who are getting treatment are probably receiving a much more effective service package than the large numbers of victims whom we treat with relative generosity.

    It appears that, if we really want to minimize further victimization we may be spending our money in the wrong ways.

    ***************************************************

    What a sobering, somewhat depressing, observation.

    waiting

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