jezus and time

DannyBloem

Just some thinking about the sctiptues.
As we know God created jezus. That must mean that Jezus has a beginning or is born. That must mean that time already existed.
Time is a property of the universe. Jezus can't be created before time was created. Therefor it is reasonable to comclude that Jezus is part of the universe and did not crate it, maybe only the things or some things inside.
If God is no part of the universe and Jezus is, there is a huge difefrence between them.
Any thoughts on this matter?

Sith

I'm just not sure what to cornclude from your post. I have my doubts about what exactly Jezus crated. Maybe lots of corn

Terry

I think I know what you are alluding to here.

However, my understanding is impeded. How? The precision of your wording indicates to me that you don't value spellcheck. It helps you be accurate in spelling and getting your point across.

I only mention this because it might be symptomatic of other things. (I often mistakenly produce a word spelled wrong; but, I re-read my post and try and catch it and use the Edit function.)

Aside from that.......

You've not examined the very foundation of your statements and rooted out the hidden "givens" that are hiding there.

When you say: "As we know...." you assume something. That assumption is not a true assumption. That means everything you build on top of that foundation is wrong.

When you say "Time is a property of the Universe" you give no data to prove it.

In my thinking Time is merely a convenient way of keeping track of the distance between events and putting them in an order we can account for. Time is a conceptual practice humans like to use and does not ACTUALLY EXIST.

I point that out for a reason. When you build an argument, each chain of that argument has to be strong or the chain breaks.

One last point.

When we use words they have to have actual meaning or we are fooling ourselves that we are thinking and fooling others that we are communicating with them in a meaningful way.

Take the term UNIVERSE, as an example.

Let's define what we mean when we use this word: define UNIVERSE: everything that exists anywhere.

Now take a look at that. How can GOD exist and NOT be a part of the Universe (and still have Universe mean what it means)?

You see, it all becomes nonsense.

We have to be careful how we use words. We think with words. Our thinking is only as good as the accuracy of our words. Our communicating with others is only as accurate as our use of words.

I hope you don't find this criticism personally directed at you. I'm just telling you why I hesitated to respond to your Topic. This is the only way I could that might prove beneficial.

If not, just ignore me. I intend no offense.

Thanks,

Terry

tetrapod.sapien

hi danny,

welcome to the board!

your post is interesting. so, you're saying that the genesis account is not telling the truth because it tells us that the first thing god created was jesus. but for jesus to have a beginning, technically it would require time to already exist. but clearly, god created all things through jesus. so it's a type of paradox?

i was always under the impression that time was the fourth dimension that is observable to us. for example: i have a meeting at 5th avenue and 3rd street (two dimensions), on the 8th floor (third dimension), at 3:30PM (fourth dimension). but i think that dimensions are only properties of our universe or multiverses. super string theorists these days, are saying that there may be as many as 11 dimensions in hyper space, but they are tiny and curled up. whatever the case, jesus could have been created first, out of space and time, and then the two of them created the universe. not that i believe that, but thats what JWs say is what happened. i think the seeming paradox may be systemic to what terry mentioned, in the way we relate to time. it really is a kind of invention of our minds when we think in terms of a beginning and an end. we take it way too seriously. of course, the genesis account is one explanation from some backwater middle eastern desert tribe that a lot of people take seriously still. and in that sense, it's really a non issue.

look forward to seeing you around!

TS

fairchild

Hi Danny, welcome to the board.

The sound of your name, and the way you spell Je(z)us, it makes me think that you are from the Flemish part of Belgium? If so, please send me a pm. (I'm from that corner too).

ps. You can send the pm in Flemish if that is easier for you.

openpass2

Actually this topic is what started me on the path to thinking for myself and not relying on others to think for me.

I started thinking about God 'creating' Jesus. What conflicted in my brain with God 'creating' anything was that we've always been taught that God is infinite; no beginning, no end, no middle...God is eternal and nothing changes.

But if God creates anything, then that becomes a point on a timeline; but God cannot have a timeline. We can picture ourselves as a strait timeline with a birth, mid-life and death. God would be more like a circle, no beginning, no end, rather always in the present. If Jesus was created, then there was a 'time' before Jesus or a point on Gods timeline.

I don't see how there can be a 'before' with God. Then you would have to ask, 'what was God doing 'before' that...and before that...and so on." In other words, when did God, in infinity, decide to create Jesus. If God was without Jesus for an infinite amount of time, then he would continue to be without Jesus...infintely; why would anything change in infinity. Again, if God was without Jesus forever in the past, why would that change? Nothing changes in infinity.

Awesome concepts; I'm glad to see there are others think think the same!

tetrapod.sapien

Awesome concepts; I'm glad to see there are others think think the same!

welcome to the board openpass! there are so many great people here at this board. what is your flavour? it's here somewhere.

enjoy your stay and look forward to your posts.

TS

JamesThomas

Welcome Danny, and welcome Openpass - to whom this post is more directed.

Perhaps those who have a sense of God's "infinity" have no need for a Jesus, or other deities, as there is no person or place which is more or less Divine. The Jesus/time paradox would not arise, as there is no need to mentally reach or imagine beyond the holiness of the present moment.

But what do i know.

j

Leolaia

Acually, if you lok at the Greek ,, the two texts that the Soceity uzes to argue that Jezus is a creation more likely refer to his authorite over creation ("firstborn over creation" as a genative of subordinatoin, with "all things created by him" and sustaining the uniferse in Colossians 1:15-18; "ruler of God's creation" in Revelation 3:18)...,,,,, the veiw of the apologists was that Jezus was begotten by God, not craeted by him..

skyman

I feel there are many parrel u niverses out there. So I have a hard time believing in the Allmighty God. In the beginning I believe this is what happened that two Parrel Universes collided. these two universes on the edges were wavy so when they collided it threw out matter in all different directions and this exsplains why we have matter in some regions of the universe and not in others. It exsplains away the problems of the big bang.

So the universe and time is circular with no beginning or end. It exsplains everything. Scientist now are looking at this theory very deeply and the great minds here on earth believe this is how we came into existance and all things in our universe came into existance.

As far as how we came into the world. God is a space being that created us from his own DNA and lives today in space. He is far more powerful than us but is only more powerful because his realm has been around longer so he is able to do things that appear as miracles to us. Just like the air plane would look to some one in the 1700's.

So I don't think it matters when Jusus was created.

jezus and time

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