Why should Kingdom Hall sales proceeds go to the Watchtower?

by VM44 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  VM44

  Suppose a whole congregation decides it has had enough of the Watchtower. Suppose also that they have paid for their own Kingdom Hall and the mortgage is paid off in full.

  Why should they not be free to rename the KH to some other name, or, if they want to, sell it and keep the money?

  Legally, why should the Watchtower think it has a claim on the Kingdom Hall property? After all, in most instances, the Watchtower did NOT PAY FOR IT!

  --VM44

  PS. This actually happened in Texas about 20 years ago. The detail are somewhat vague though. Not much publicity about it. Anyone have the details?
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  blondie

  Actually, congregations sell KHs all the time and bank the money and buy land and building supplies for the new KH. The only time it reverts to the WTS is if the congregation that holds the land the building is on is dissolved. Then according to the laws regarding nonprofit corporations, the money/property reverts to the parent corporation.

  Blondie
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  VM44

  hi blondie,

  The congregation in Texas, if I remember correctly, broke away from the Watcthower, so I assume it was dissolved, but....they wanted to keep the Kingdom Hall building, the WT sent their lawyer to fight them. There is not that much info about what happened, but I do not think the WT won. I am sure that the WT made legal changes concerning Halls after the whole episode was over.

  --VM44
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  No Apologies

  First of all VM, your opening question is based on an erroneous assumption that refuses to die among some apostates.

  Regardless of that, yes, back in the 80's an entire congregation in Texas broke away, and yes they took the Kingdom Hall with them. I'm sure the Society was not happy about it, but they are limited by the fact that it has become increasingly important for them to maintain the legal fiction that there is no connection between the org and the congregations. If the Society had the title to each Kingdom Hall, it would be obvious who was in charge. That would be a major liability to them when they are being faced with lawsuits left and right.

  And really, the odds of an entire congregation going apostate, are pretty slim.

  No Apologies
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  VM44

  Hi No Apologies,

  The Texas instance of an entire congregation breaking away may be truly unique, the only instance of it every happening.

  My original question for this thread really was directed towards this one example. I wish there was more written about it so people could have an accurate understanding of what happened.

  --VM44
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  VM44

  Found this thread here at JWD from 2002 using Google.

  OH MY GOD!!!!! WTS LOCKS JW's OUT OF KH?

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/28242/1.ashx

  The Associated Press
  February 10, 1986, Monday, PM cycle
  HEADLINE: Local Church Wins Fight With National Office

  DATELINE: BONHAM, Texas

  BODY:
  Members of a Jehovah's Witness congregation have declared victory in their legal fight with the denomination's national
  organization over ownership of a local church.

  Justice of the Peace Don Jones ruled that leaders of the national group, the Watchtower Society, unlawfully changed locks and
  took over the church.

  The denomination, known for its door-to-door evangelism, has filed an an appeal of the ruling. The dispute centered on ownership
  of the Kingdom Hall and began last summer when Ralph Deal sent 14 letters to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in New
  York asking for answers to particular theological questions.

  Deal testified that when he persisted with his questions, the Watchtower Society sent a committee to Bonham on July 14 to
  choose new officers for the church. The group changed locks on the church after the new officers were chosen.

  Deal, along with Tony Jones, Wesley Ruddell and Tommy Johnson, were notified by letter that they had been "disfellowshipped"
  _ or dismissed for disciplinary reasons _ from the church. They filed suit to retain possession of Kingdom Hall.

  The title to the property is filed with the county under "Trustees of the Bonham Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses."

  After Friday's ruling, lawyer David Mercot, representing the local church, said he thinks other individuals and congregations
  dissatisfied with the Watchtower Society will be encouraged to stand up.

  "For 40 years or more, the Watchtower Society acted like the local congregations were their pawns while in public denying any
  hierarchy," Mercot said.

  The suit was filed because the local members were "rousted" from the church, Ruddell said. "We were intimidated to do exactly as
  they said."

  Jehovah's Witnesses was founded by Charles T. Russell in 1884. The denomination is distinguished by its belief that only 144,000
  people will go to heaven.

  Critics say defections from the denomination began after the world failed to end in 1975 as leaders had predicted. Other dates
  cited by church leaders included 1914, 1920, 1925 and 1938.

  Official spokesmen for the denomination have declined to answer questions about the case.

  Official spokesmen for the denomination have declined to answer questions about the case.

  They declined to answer questions?!!! I wonder why? They could have given a good witness to the media! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  --VM44
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  VM44

  Note well this in the story.....The people were expendable! But the Watchtower wanted the Kingdom Hall! --VM44
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  VM44

  I want to get a transcript of this court case, and its appeal. Does anyone know how one could get them? --VM44
• 

  ithinkisee

  What I would like to know is how this Ralph Deal worked it where the whole congregation stood behind him.

  Might be some good lessons we can learn from there.

  -ithinkisee
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  blondie

  VM, I wouldn't be surprised if the WTS either strengthened the nonprofit arrangement or instituted it after that fiasco in Texas. But even the congregation (really the 3 corporate officers selected by the BOE of the congregation that holds the territory the land the KH stands on) doesn't own it nor the corporate officers, only the non-profit corporation. It is not like everyone who gives money to the congregation is buying shares. Since most donations are anonymous, and people are always moving in and out, it would be a nightmare to run it that way besides being illegal under the laws of non-profit corporations. Can the WTS try to bully congregations, emotionally, etc, yes.. As NoApologies says, it protects the local congregation elders (individually) and the WTS from lawsuits as well, since the non-profit corporation is sued and its assets, not the individual JWs.

  What the WTS does benefit from is that more affluent congregations routinely send money out of their surplus each month, $500 to $1000 in some congregations I have attended. The other cash flow is from the money voted at assemblies by the elders (without the congregation's input as in the previous example).

  Now though if a congregation acts up, the WTS can dissolve it and then would have control over. BTW non-profit incorporation blocks corporate officers from personally benefiting monetarily.

  I personally feel the WTS screws over its members more seriously in their policy re child abuse and blood transfusion, things that no dollar amount can be assigned to.

  Blondie