Comments You Will Not Hear at the 6-5-05 WT Study (Resurrection)

by blondie 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Scully

  To comfort these, the WTS has to once again stress the resurrection and remind the faithful that the Bible only promises this to the great crowd as a group and not to individuals. Neat way to cover all the bases.

  How can it be promised to a group and not to individuals when it is individuals that make up the group.

  Oddly enough, it is the Promise TM of You Can Live Forever In Paradise on Earth that is made to the individual during the indoctrination/ conversion process that hooks the individual into the JWs.

  Nice way to "bait and switch". Kind of like the gal who "puts out" until she's got your wedding ring on her finger.
• 

  ezekiel3

  I thought I'd "resurrect" one of my earier topics - Why JW's believe in reincarnation, not the resurrection. From: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/78201/1.ashx

  ---

  JWs will say they believe in a resurrection of dead humans to earth (the most ancient to be Abel, son of Adam) after God destroys wicked mankind in Armeggedon. They use the word "resurrection" based on:

  *** rs p. 333 Resurrection ***
  Definition: A·na´sta·sis, the Greek word translated "resurrection," literally means "a standing up again" and it refers to a rising up from death.

  So how will Abel's long decayed remains be resurrected?

  *** ts chap. 19 p. 171 Billions Now Dead Will Soon Live Again ***Moreover, it would not be reasonable to insist that precisely the same atoms be regathered to form their restored body. After death, and through the process of decay, the human body is converted into other organic chemicals. These may be absorbed by plants, and people may eat these plants or their fruit. Thus the atomic elements making up the deceased person can eventually come to be in other people. Obviously, at the time of the resurrection the identical atoms cannot be reassembled in every person brought back from the dead.

  So that means a new body?

  *** ts chap. 19 p. 172 Billions Now Dead Will Soon Live Again ***
  "But if a person is thus re-created," someone may say, "is he really the same person" Is he not just a copy?? No, for this reasoning overlooks the fact earlier mentioned that even in life our bodies are constantly undergoing change. About seven years ago the molecules making up our bodies were different from the molecules forming them today. We even differ in appearance as the years go by. Yet, do we not have the same fingerprints? Are we not the same persons? Most certainly.

  Now which of the two following definitions apply?

  RESURRECT [fr. to rise again] To restore to life; to reanimate; to bring to view again (that what was forgotten or lost); also, to exhume. Webster?s New Collegiate Dictionary

  REINCARNATE To cause to be reborn in another body; incarnate again. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
• 

  Leolaia

  Actually, it's not reincarnation either, because there is no essence like a soul that gets put into a new body. A better word for it: cloning. God would make replicants of people long dead and program them to think that they are the same people as those who perished long ago. That's the so-called hope that the Society teaches.

  Interestingly, in NT the dead are resurrected to be judged; this is the whole point of Jesus' statements about Judgment Day in Matthew. But how could an innocent clone that only was programmed with the memories of a person long dead be judged for the deeds of that person? It doesn't make any sense. So not only does the Society fail to have any biblical notion of resurrection, it also fails to recognize the purpose of said resurrection: to bless or punish those who had died, on the basis of their deeds in their prior life.
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  Leolaia

  BTW, here is a fairly extensive list of early quotes that discuss resurrection for the purpose of judgment, and the rewards and punishments of said judgment:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/91779/1546236/post.ashx#1546236
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  SallySue

  Thank you Blondie for your indepth study.

  The WT is getting more stupid with every article.

  Where is the logic...

  Abraham had a child with Sarah proves he believes in the resurrection.

  If anything, it should prove it to Sarah, but how it proves it to Abraham I am too much of an apostate to understand.

  What about the scripture of the great cloud of witnesses in heaven watching the runners of Paul's day keep the faith?

  And Lot, come on are you serious.... the WT makes some good points????

  Thanks Blondie for all your hard work. I truly your study.
• 

  blondie

  EF,

  I must say I always found it amazing that Dub's would laugh at reincarnation as utter ridiculous yet so easily believe in the resurrection. Are either really that far apart from one another? One more believable than the other?

  The comparison of resurrection and reincarnation is for each person to make. I always thought that reincarnation was something that happened automatically, while resurrection was presented as something that a higher power or God made a conscious decision about.

  I guess that is where a person’s faith comes in. In the end, we will all find out. The important thing is how we use our lives now; in a way that shows consideration and love for those around us and ourselves.

  (I didn’t realize you were an MD; I’ll make a mental note)

  fairy

  , I hope my later comment cleared up how the WTS promises group protection to the great crowd without guaranteeing individual protection.

  w01 8/15 p. 21 Have Faith Like That of Abraham! ***

  While individuals may be allowed to die, God will never allow the extermination of his people as a whole.

  Steve2,

  I have see this reasoning on as a group used by elders to deal with disappointed spouses who lose their spouse to death before the end comes. Knowing that the WTS teaches that resurrected people won’t marry, you can imagine knowing that you will be separated eternally in spite of the resurrection.

  Greendawn,

  I thought the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will be judging the Jews of Jesus's day in the resurrection.

  Actually, the WTS has taught that the people of S&G will be resurrected or die eternally and back again. This is one of the famous flipflop doctrines of the WTS. Currently, the WTS teaches that these people died eternally despite the fact that no one actually preached to them and warned the city of the doom and all the minor children never had a chance. As one prominent JW said, nits grow up to be lice.

  Good quotes, Gary,

  But the WTS flipflops again

  w97

  1/1 p. 11 Let All Glorify Jehovah! ***

  In the early 1920’s, a featured public talk presented by Jehovah’s Witnesses was entitled "Millions Now Living Will Never Die." This may have reflected overoptimism at that time. But today that statement can be made with full confidence. Both the increasing light on Bible prophecy and the anarchy of this dying world cry out that the end of Satan’s system is very, very near! The Memorial report for 1996 shows that 12,921,933 attended, of whom only 8,757 (.068 percent) indicated their heavenly hope by partaking of the emblems. The restoration of true worship nears completion.

  Hi Lot,

  but in this one you spend too much time picking apart every little detail. This could be done with any writing on any subject. It doesn't hurt too admit valid points even when they come from the WT.

  It may seem so because last week’s article provided much to examine. But remember the small things every week lay the foundation for misconceptions, for example, referring to "Christians" but only meaning JWs. A non-JW reading this would miss the underlying message that the WTS teaches only dedicated, baptized JWs will survive the coming destruction of the wicked people they preach about.

  Also, the Pharisees undoubtedly taught some things that were accurate, yet Jesus compared them to whitewashed graves and cups that were clean on the outside but filthy inside.

  Jesus said too that he who is faithful in what is least is faithful in what is much.

  I have had reviews in the past that discussed the pointed vocabulary of the WTS. This is your opportunity to use the Bible or whatever resources you wish to explain how you view the resurrection and how it compares with what the WTS has taught over time.

  I will say that the WTS does not present much here in this article; they will next week try a little harder.

  Welcome to the board.

  SB

  , thanks for the support.

  Hi, tweety,

  You might notice that Paul is speaking the Jews (book of Hebrews). Would this explanation carried much weight with the Gentile Christians?

  Of course, we remember that Paul had been raised/schooled as a Pharisee and was well equipped to debate the resurrection with his fellow Jewish Saduccees. Evidently, knowing the account of Abraham and Isaac had not led the Saduccees to the conclusion that the resurrection was valid. It would be helpful to examine what the Jews actually believed about the resurrection down through their history and was it based on the Bible or tradition. Leiola has posted a thread that goes into that (beyond my abilities).

  Good illustration, Scully,

  To comfort these, the WTS has to once again stress the resurrection and remind the faithful that the Bible only promises this to the great crowd as a group and not to individuals. Neat way to cover all the bases.

  How can it be promised to a group and not to individuals when it is individuals that make up the group.

  Oddly enough, it is the Promise

  TM of You

  Can Live Forever In Paradise on Earth that is made to the individual during the indoctrination/ conversion process that hooks the individual into the JWs.

  Nice way to "bait and switch". Kind of like the gal who "puts out" until she's got your wedding ring on her finger.

  This isn’t the only issue the WTS dances around. Before the change in the time frame of when the goats are judged to a future time (after the GT started), they danced around whether deceased non-JW family members would be resurrected. Non-JWs who died between 1914 and the GT were considered to have had their chance and missed it and would not be resurrected.

  Ezekiel3

  , good research. I wonder though what people in cultures that believe in reincarnation, how they approach it religiously?

  Leiola

  , good questions.

  But how could an innocent clone that only was programmed with the memories of a person long dead be judged for the deeds of that person?

  I do believe that the WTS teaches that these people will be judged by what they do from then on, not past deeds of themselves or someone else.

  I have found it difficult to comprehend how a new body with a person’s memories and personality imprinted would work. But then I don’t think scientists today have the answer to that question either. I wonder when people have been in a coma and wake up without any memory of their past, if they are the same person. Whatever makes us unique, is it more than memories chemically imprinted on our brain, more than the genetic markers we have inherited? I’m no scientist, just a science fiction buff.

  Hi SallySue,

  The WTS does have some valid points for Christians when they stay with the Bible’s viewpoint and don’t expand on it.

  I can see if people believe there is a God that created all things, it is not such a leap to believe there is a God who could re-create those things.

  Love, Blondie

  Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend. We have had sun, tornado watch/warnings and finally the rain we desperately needed. I heard there was snow in Wyoming?
• 

  Blueblades

  Be prepared to die! Looks like keeping on the watch for the end to come soon is being replaced with "YOU" just might die before the end comes! So the orginal "CARROT" is replaced with a new, old, Carrot,ie, 'you can live forever, after you die first and then get resurrected'. YOU, old timers, looks like you won't live to see the end afterall, so have faith in the resurrection hope, the next best thing for YOU.
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  jgnat

  I've skipped out my study again this week. Instead, I reviewed yours, Blondie. I quoted certain inoffensive sections to my JW honey. I especially appreciated this summary:

  Every time resurrection is discussed in the NT, it means only a spirit body. The early Christians had no such earthly hope. They all were going to die, be resurrected as spirits, and rule with Christ in heaven.

  EVERY TIME my honey brings up the TWO HOPES, I ask him where IN BIBLE CONTEXT it says so. Of course, it doesn't.

  P.S. Thanks for solving a puzzle. Many times my honey has told me I don't believe in the resurrection. I had no idea where that thought had come from. I reply, "Sure I do. I just don't think the JW's know who is going to make it and who isn't."
• 

  OldSoul

  Thanks again, Blondie!!

  Isn't it cathartic (refreshing) to rip it to shreds on a weekly basis? I caught the point on how they consistently refer to "Christians" since all JWs already know that they are the only true Christians. You are correct in your analysis of their motive in doing so. It is deceitful to portray themselves in a more appealing light than is genuine for the purpose of suckering the unwary.

  2 Corinthians 11:12-15 Now what I am doing I will still do, that I may cut off the pretext from those who are wanting a pretext for being found equal to us in the office of which they boast. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.

  They say they use candor to appeal to honesthearted ones, but if they use candor they would have no followers.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  Leolaia

  I do believe that the WTS teaches that these people will be judged by what they do from then on, not past deeds of themselves or someone else.

  Indeed....this is totally unbiblical, but their equally unbiblical interpretation of "the wages of sin is death" essentially saves them from making such a bizarre contradiction.

  I wonder when people have been in a coma and wake up without any memory of their past, if they are the same person.

  Hey, that's an interesting point. The only link to the original person in the Society's doctrine of recreation (not resurrection) are the memories. But as you point out, these can go missing even in this life as well.

  Whatever makes us unique, is it more than memories chemically imprinted on our brain, more than the genetic markers we have inherited? I’m no scientist, just a science fiction buff.

  The religious answer, of course, is that there is a spirit, a soul, something, that survives death. The scientific answer...well, resurrection is not a scientific concept. But it all boils down to whether there is continuity of existence between one life and the next. The Jewish and Christian belief of resurrection assumes that continuity. The Society does not.