by skyman 30 Replies latest watchtower bible
Well I tried to reply once and was lost but here goes again .
I think garybus had it right that the society believes the bible was written exclusively for the anointed . The blood doctrine in the new testament was more of settling a dispute between jews and gentiles as the gentile pagans used animal blood in their diet and the jews thought it was disgusting . The apostle Paul wrote that the mosaic law was obsolete anyway but was still used as a tutor .
Personally after reading the little bit of the qoute from the Insight book, that the poster has read too much into the words he presented. The first part says that it was OK to seel unbled meat "to an alien resident or a foreigner" refers to none beliving alien residents. Read on. the portion directly after the scripture says "the Israelites, as well as alien residents WHO TOOK UP TRUE WORHIP and came under the Law covenant" (CAPITALS MINE) shows that once an alien resident decided to follow the ways of the Jews he had to abide by all the laws of the Jews including the none eating of unbled animals. His assumption ....."The Society clearly states that most of us are only observers that take a hold of the skirt of the JEW. So with their own word they admit that we are not Anointed Isrealites under the lofty law on blood up we are the the foreigners who had to eat the blood filled meat.".... is incorrect. None anointed JWs are more than "an alien resident or a foreigner" They have attached themselve to the ways of the "spiritual Jew" and just as the alien resident that become a "beliver" had to abey the moral and legal laws of israel. anyone wanting to be a follower of Christ must also come under the legal and moeal law code of the Christ.
I think you mean the law code of the WTBTS .
No I mean the law code of the christ
JW Ben
Today we can not be like the old Jews we are not bound to the Law when a man of the nations became a believer he was bound by the Jewish laws. But as regards today we are liken to the rest of the world in the society publications. The blood laws was for spiritual men in their temple worship. Look again at what the Society say's in the insight book and then the rest of the publications. We are told that the law given to Noah was given to all the world including the Jews. So when the Society answers question regarding blood they say every one was given the same law in regards blood but the Jew kept the law while the rest of the world ignored the Law on blood. This is why they claim we are still under the law on blood because Paul restated in at Act to every oone including the new converts. But The Insight says that there was a difference between the two groups. Else where in the publication the Society says the Law on blood was the same for the Jew as well as the rest of the world. The Publications say that the law was the same for every man and woman put on the earth but then admits that the law was not the same for all mankind in the Insight book. You have missed the hypocracy the Insight Book tells the truth while forgeting all the rest of the publication say different. SO NO I DID NOT READ MORE INTO IT. I even sent a letter to the Society about this they respond for me to wait on Jehovah the Society did not refute that fact I point out to them.
I agree that the law given to Noah was for mankind. Noah and his imidiate family followed the laws of Jehovah. The Israelites were under an extended law code as passed on through Moses. The law code of Moses was abolished at the death of the Christ. The law given to Noah is still in force. When one wants to submit to the Law of God and of his Christ one has to accept all such laws that Jehoavh dictates for us to keep, abstanace from blood was one, just as not to murder is another. In the time of the Israelites the law on blood was enforced on those that were born into (or under) the law covenment. What unbelivers accepted or did not accept was their problem. If a none Israelite ate of the flesh of an unbled animal that was betwen then and God. It would appear that the non Israltes nations may not have been familiar with the law s given to Noah. The Israelites were in a different situation. As a nation they were "Gods chosen ones" Being born an Israelite meant that they were under law, it was not a choice to make and still be considered an Israelite (at leaset while the nation were doing what is right)foreigner that became converted to the ways of Jehovah had to then conform to all of Gods ways. The nation at times became extremely apostate and God saw to it they wer punushed (only after givuing them opportunities to turn around)He did not punish with out warning. If an Israelite gave (or sold) unbled meat to a non believing forigner that did not go against the law. If that non beliver ate that meat (which the Israelite possibly knew they would) does not put the blame on the Israelite. The non believer ate of his own fee will. Jesus was the fullfilment of the law code as no human could keep it perfectly. The fact that Paul refers back to the blood issue tells me that Jehovahs view on blood for his name people had not changed. Jehoavh often allowed certain befavoiu to happen even though he did not agree with it. e.e. many Israelitres had more that one wife. It was not his intentin for that situation to excist. Jesus chrytalised it when he said that a man should have only one wife. The no blood law was given to Noah but enforced only on those that by birth (The Israelites) or willingly (converts from the nations) that took on his name. So Yes I do think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill by that quote. You have read more into it than is there.
JW Ben: What does the Watchtower lack that has you coming back to this site every now and then to defend it? Personally, I've no problem with your participation. I just wonder about the charade you must be pulling off in your local congregation. Do they know that you visit this site and fraternize with disfellowshipped persons?
I am fully aware of the nature of this site. I come here to present a balancing view for those that are not sure what to do. Many of the things I read here are so full of rubish it is not funny. The tragedy is that it is mostlt presented in a belivable manner.
I am fully awaer of all the scandles that are spoken of here. I see people taking a human point of view and not a spiritual point of view. No one here seems to be able to look above the human factor, the Bible is full of accounts of men with Gods favour doing horable things, conspirecy to murder, fornication, neglecting each other, missunderstanding the words of Jesus and pronouncing a "false prophecy" (see the last chpter of John... Peter starts a false prophecy that went out to all the congos. because he did not understand what Jesus had said) cauising devisions in congregations (again Peter was involved in this) lack of love to the apostle Paul by the theselonians. Alll these things are written for our instruction. We should expect things not to go without problems in Gods Organisation (what ever group one thinks that is).
Most at this site once thought it was JWs but became too obsessed with the organisation and its mistakes. I have NEVER put the org first, I put Giod first and look at things the way he would see things.
He has always used an organisation al the way throiugh history. Most here once belived that JWs were that org. Now they do not and put their slant of waht they percive to be truth. I come here to put a balacing slant on the arguments fo the benefit of those that do not know which way to go.
Yes I have been misstreated by elders and I blame those elders for not following instructions not JWs as a group.
The group of people collectively known as JWs are the only ones doing the will of God in our day and age.
JW Ben what you are say that I can go hold the coat and let some one else get murdered. I am confused when the bible at At Duet. 14:21 it states “You must not eat any body [already] dead. To the alien resident you may give it, and he must eat it; or there may be a selling of it to a foreigner.” The Alien resident is you and ME representing the rest of mankind that Jehovah gave the command to at Gen: 9:4. Lev. 17:15 read “As for any soul that eats a bbody [already] dead or something torn by a wild beast, whether a native or a alien resident, he must in that case wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until evening; and he must be clean.” WOW why would he be gulity of only that If I had sex with my wife I would have been unclean untill evening, If I killed and butchered a chicken I was unclean until evening. Look here at what the bible how Jehovah reacted when the Soldiers of Saul disobeyed God’s law regarding blood. Remember they knew the command given to them on blood. [This was not the law given to the rest of mankind] At 1 Samuel 14: 31-35. “The people began darting greedily at the spoil…fell to eating along with the blood. Vs. 33...The people are sinning against Jehovah by eating along with the blood.” What happened to them? They were given a reprimand. They made atonement for their sin through sacrifices. Was it not the Law, that they were to be put to death? These men had proven their loyalty on many occasions. In their mind it was a life and death matter they were hungery their selfish hunger drove them to act greedily, so they did not take the time to properly give to God the blood [LIFE] back. As obvious the sin is here. Jehovah valued the Loyalty of the Soldiers from their past deeds. Jehovah shows he valued their life by not killing them.
During my life I have heard talks from the platform discussing Num 11:31-35. Here it talks about quail being sent to the camp of Israel. From the talks, the brothers usually point out that the people broke the law on blood given to Noah, which is no doubt true. But what is of interest to me is the fact the Bible does not mention this apparent sin. It states that the Israelites were killed because of their greed. Why is there no mention of the sin of blood here? Could it be that the sin of greed is worse? I do not know! If I was to ask any JW’s what the worst sin was here was… they would say with out hesitation the sin of blood!
The reason HE killed them is made clear at Num 11:34 it states “selfish craving”. If our answer was the sin of blood, it would not be in agreement with the mind of Jehovah. Have we really come to know Jehovah? Do we have the right to speak for him? We must come to know who this Jehovah is, and his thoughts are higher than ours.
Look at Acts 15: 17-20. It clearly say’s “abstain from blood”. Lets take a closer look. First we have to recognize the fact that this statement was given in harmony with the older men of Jerusalem on their decision over circumcision. This was a volatile time in the first century church. If you look closely, you will notice the bible does not state that the Mosaic Law on blood was still binding. But the law of Noah was to be kept. “Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God,” Jehovah was not giving the nations a new command at Acts 15: The new converts came under the same law that had been in place for thousands of years they were to abstain from things polluted by idols, fornication from things strangled and blood. All of these laws were in effect before Jehovah gave Israel the Mosaic Law. Is this not the very reason we concluded that circumcision is not binding on us? Remember the Golden calf; remember Joseph and the wife of Potiphar remember the law on blood given to Noah? God did not ask anything more, than these necessary things
to keep doing . Before any scriptures against thse sins and long before the Law convenant the last two about idol wordhip and fornication was a law given all of mankind because it was given prior to the Jewish convenant that is why in Acts 15: 17-20 the law given to the whole world was regiven to the new converts because it was not a law given to the nation of Isreal but to all of mankind. So when the Insight Book admits that there were two different Laws one for the JEW and one for the rest of the world the Law given to the Jew was not binding onto the new Christian Church only the law for the rest of the world. Notice Pual was only reinforcing the same law where Jehovah state at Duet. 14:21 were Jehovah had pinned the alien resident must eat it. That alian resident is you and me.
We can see that the law Jehovah gave Noah was not equal to, or the same as, the law he gave to Israel. Under the Mosaic Law, blood was more restrictive for Israel than the rest of the earth. Defining the law on blood given to Israel, and making it apply to the rest of mankind is unworkable in the scriptures. Blood was uniquely used by the nation of Israel for atonement sacrifices. There are two different worlds here, the world under the Law of the Jews, plus the world that was not under the Law which we are today we are the rest of the world that was demand to eat it.
We should always look for ourselves by studying the Scriptures to understand Jehovah’s thoughts. We cannot hide from Jehovah’s wrath. He will deal with anyone whom he wishes.I know Jehovah penned these scriptures sited here in this discussion. HE also penned, “Better is a live dog than a dead lion.” If I am wrong, I wish someone could explain these scriptures to me. I do not want to believe something that Jehovah does not teach. If I am right, that Jehovah really meant that these scriptures should be in the bible and somehow HE really meant for us to read them and understand them, are not the implications huge? Even the point that the Israelites could profit from the selling of an unbled animal makes huge implications for today. We as Jehovah's Witnesses cannot even use blood for fertilizer let alone profit from its use. Since the Jews could profit from unbled meat means today we could own stocks in the so-called blood subtitles like Polyheme and Biopure. Biopure is 100% cows blood that has been highly filtered. Polyheme is 100% human blood that has been highly filtered. Both of these are safe for all blood types and free of known risks. They are used to carry oxygen in the body. Both of these are OK to use according to the Society. Both however are 100% blood. Both have not been properly poured out on the ground. Both coagulate while waiting to be filtered. We are not allowed to store our own blood for later use because the Society say's it can't be allowed to coagulate. So auto-transfusion is in violation of the scriptures according to the Society. Hold it here!!! I can see a double standard, a big one. Even blood used for fractions have coagulated before the factions are taken out. Someone had to donate that blood. If we donated blood we would be disasociated by our actions. But we can use blood fractions that have been donated. We can are allowed use blood fractions from blood that has coagulated. It really does not make any sense to me, how we can say one applies, but the other does not. We have clear scriptures that shows what Jehovah's stand is on blood. Plus we violate our own law when it comes to fractions because blood can't coagulate and be used if you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. Now the Society say’s we can use the new blood substitutes like Polyheme and Biopure. I think that the bible is so clear. We are told to wait on Jehovah. But there again, the bible teaches that we are held accountable to him. We are taught that if we take our own life it is self-murder. If we contribute in any way to the death of someone else, we are blood guilty. For example, if our car needs brakes and we don’t fix them and someone is killed because of the brakes not working properly, then we are blood guilty. Our own record on blood shows that there are big problems when it come to the biblical stand and making it applies to the world today, or our stand would not be so confusing. Every brother I have talked to about our stand on blood has a different way of viewing it. Some will take fractions, some will not. Some will use blood recycler’s, some will not. If the scripture sited in this discussion are really in the Bible and I know they are, someone is in trouble. I have shared my thoughts with several Elders and none of them have disagreed we me. I have shared all of this and more with a C.O. and I swear to you he said he has know this for year then told me to wait on Jehovah. Why? Jehovah wrote his bible thousands of years ago he don't need us to wait he has allready told us.
Jehovah is not about change. It has been clear in the scriptures the whole time. HE will demand the blood of the little ones back to HIM. Just like HE will demand the blood of the prophets back to HIM. If someone, causes the death of a person because of a command that did not originate from God. Then it is nothing short of murder. Jehovah always asks for that blood to be paid back by the person or person’s responsible .
The group of people collectively known as JWs are the only ones doing the will of God in our day and age.
Ok What's your take on this ? Just what is it that makes them so special ?
Just discussing the blood doctrine proves they are hypocrites in the first degree . They allow for fractions but somehow whole blood is illegal. I can't see any mention of the church taking action against those that did eat blood puddings or strangled meats . They just have a very bad habit of straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel . I think the whole thing back in the first century was more to do with the jews crying over the gentile converts and causing dissention . hebrews 8:13
