Dorothy and Gus just left

by gwyneth 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • gwyneth
    gwyneth

    They caught me off guard...I didn't sleep well because I had to put my cat Rocco to sleep yesterday, and for some reason awoke at 2 a.m. to cry another hour...my eyes are puffy with big bags under them. So I went back to sleep.

    Since I decided to write this as a big run-on sentence, I have put what they say in red, and what I say in yellow.

    Dorothy was in her 70's, and she told me that in the new system, cats would still die but we wouldn't be so attached to them. She said we need love from animals right now.

    She showed me a scripture, a tract, and then brought out magazines from March. I accepted, but then she wanted to come back, so I said, I am sorry to mislead you, but I am apostate.

    Her husband, Gus, who identified himself as an elder, had his eyes bulge and mouth open. He asked if I used to belong to a congregation, and I confirmed, yes. He asked why I left. I said, initially, I was stumbled by the elders. He asked what congregation. I said Winter Garden, but I grew up in Eustis (where they were from.) I said, as time went by, I did research about the (and I used the quoting fingers) "organization," and found it to be corrupt and vile. He said, Like what? And I said, Their UN involvement, for one. They were members of the UN. He said, I lived in Brooklyn, NY, I know all the governing body, and that's a lie. I said, It is published. They are on the list. The UN lies? And he said, Yes! I rolled my eyes. I said, Also, the pedophile issue. He said, Oh yes, there has been a problem with that, but the wrongdoer is removed from the congregation. I said, I don't agree with not reporting it to the police so no reproach is on Jehovah, or the two witness rule. That does nothing to protect the victim. He said, Oh no, we had a letter from the society and we are to report it to the police. I said, How long ago did you get that letter? Without missing a beat, he said, Two years ago. (I couldn't believe he didn't try to tell me that it's been the society's policy all along.) I said, What about the victims 10 years ago? 5 years ago? He said, Well, they are not perfect, they admit they aren't. I said, Yes they do! I said, Any organization (more quoting fingers) that tries to control the information their members receive is a cult. He was almost jumping up and down. He said, I've been in the truth since 1943, and I believe it's God's instrument. Men are imperfect. In the end, after Armageddon, there will be paradise and that's what I'm looking forward to. I said, Speaking of Armageddon and being an oldtimer like yourself, how do you feel about Armageddon not being here yet in your lifetime? He said, Oh yes, they thought it would be in 1975. That was a mistake. They apologized for that. (They did? When has the society ever apologized for anything???) Then he said, They don't make predictions anymore. I said, What about the one that Armageddon would be before the end of the millennium? Before your lifetime? I hope when you pass away, that you look back and think the 50+ years you spent in this organization gave you everything they promised. He said, Even though the end may not come in my lifetime, this is the best way to live. I have friends, people who love me in the congregation, and I have morals. Are you saying the way of the world is better? I said, Do you see my freshly cut lawn you commented on earlier? My neighbor across the street came by with her riding mower and without asking or saying a word, mowed my whole lawn. And then she did my next door neigbor's too. A worldly person did this. The world is not all bad. He said, You mean a world where people kill each other and children kill their mothers is a good place? I said, Witnesses are no different. They kill each other and their mothers too. He looked at me skeptically. I said, It is all published. These are from newspapers. They are not made up. If you are open minded enough, I would be happy to get you copies. At this point, the wife, who had been dancing from foot to foot to avoid all the fire ants on my sidewalk, begged her husband to go. She asked me to still read the rags, er, I mean, mags. They left without really saying whether they'd come back, leave me alone, or sic some elders on me. Then I immediately came in and am here.

    I very carefully and consciously made an effort NOT to mention the internet anywhere in the conversation, as any reference to the tool of Satan would have pushed their righteous indignation and denial buttons.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Good job gwyneth.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Hi Gwyneth!

    You mentioned

    I said, Their UN involvement, for one. They were members of the UN. He said, I lived in Brooklyn, NY, I know all the governing body, and that's a lie.

    Here's the interesting thing about this. If you look at WTS literature, you will see that prior to their affiliation with the UN, they were very consistent in describing it as part of Satan's system. At the time they registered with the UN as a non-gevernmental organization, the Society had a "change of heart," and articles began appearing in WTS literature that at the very least had the appearance of SUPPORTING the UN. According to the terms of affiliation as an NGO, the NGO is REQUIRED by the UN to support it.

    If the WTS never registered as an NGO, why did they suddenly change their tone toward the UN?

    Furthermore, if the WTS never registered as an NGO with the UN, why did they send a letter to branch offices saying that they DID join, but only for a library card?

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    Amazing how they always home in on the worst that there is in the world and completely ignore anything positive, so you did well to point this out to them that things are not black and white, there are nice worldly people and nasty jws.

  • morning glory
    morning glory

    And I said, Their UN involvement, for one. They were members of the UN. He said, I lived in Brooklyn, NY, I know all the governing body, and that's a lie.

    When I mentioned the NGO involvement last year to the two elders sitting at my table,the first reaction of one was,"Its an apostate LIE". The second elder backed him up and said,"They would not have done that. I goes againt everything the Society has taught us!" I agreed with his latter statement and then proceeded to show each of them the UN letter where it was stated that the WTS was an NGO for that 10 year period. The icing on the cake was the letter from the Branch office acknowledging it,too. As the conversation progressed,the original retorts of "lies" and "impossible" startedto change to,"Well,see they had their reasons)(library card) and "Thet are not doing it anymore,so FORGIVE them"

    It is very difficult most in this religion to be able to admit to themselves the "truth" Admitting the truth shakes them right to the core as it affects everything they have lived for,and they quickly go into the denial mode. That is easier for them even if it is not the truth! However,the ostrich can keep his head buried in the sand when the hunter is approaching but it might find out that it is going to get it's ass shot off!

  • blondie
    blondie
    Her husband, Gus, who identified himself as an elder

    So what did that mean, that he knew his Bible better than the rank and file?

    That must be a new d2d technique for elders.

    Believe me because I'm an elder, not because it's in the Bible.

  • ESTEE
    ESTEE



    gwyneth wrote:

    Dorothy and Gus just left

    When I first read your thread title, I thought, "Yaaaay! Another couple of escapees from the borg!" Then I realized that what you meant was that your visit with them had just concluded. My optimism overwhelms me. I'm impressed, gwyneth ... With the things you were discussing with them. They had questions and felt safe to ask them in your presence. No matter what happens, you have given them a lot to think about ... and think they will, I am quite sure.

    I have friends, people who love me in the congregation, and I have morals.

    Part of the brainwash of the dubs is their belief that they are the only religion with good, loving and trusting friends. And the borg teaches that only the dubs teach morals. I (and many others) know that is not the truth. Since I left, I have found many, many many true, loyal, trusting and loving friends outside the borg. All with wonderful "morals". There is a lot of backstabbing and lack of "morals" inside the borg that members turn a blind eye to. Part of the brainwash is not to "see" because members are "not perfect" and Jebooger will deal with all "sins". This only gives license for the "imperfections" to continue ... because nothing gets dealt with. This includes "imperfections" such as child molestation, for one example. Elders deal with "judging sin" rather than offering any sincere aid to ones who are spiritually distressed. Finding blame instead of offering truly loving assistance is not the answer to any problem. They judged my spirituality as defective ... rather than offer me loving support me when I was down. With "support" like that ...what reason did I have to stay?

    You mean a world where people kill each other and children kill their mothers

    In the dub world, members treat their living relatives and friends as "dead" if they break some borg rule. Is that loving? Dubs don't see that. They only repeat what they hear from the platform about disfellowshipping and disassociating. There are many, many, many deeply peaceful people outside the borg. Dubs believe what they are told to believe of people outside the borg.

    Just know ... the truth will set Dorothy and Gus free, when they are ready to be set free from the borg. They asked valid questions. And questions must be asked before the thinking process begins.

    Again ... well done, gwyneth!!! I am prouda you!!!

    Love and light

    ESTEE

  • freedom96
    freedom96

    I love hearing stories about how witnesses react when confronted with the truth. You'll probably never know, but what you said might bug him for awhile.

    Well done.

  • gwyneth
    gwyneth

    Thanks so much for everyone's comments...I am going to print out the photocopies of the pages that show WTBTS were an NGO and the letter from Society, put them in an envelope with Gus's name on it, and place it at the doors of the KH tomorrow morning for him to read at his leisure.

  • lilybird
    lilybird

    Your conversation with Gus shows just how well JWS are conditioned to close their minds to new ideas and not accept their is any conflict in the organization............He seemed to have all the textbook answers as any good elder would,,,,, but as another poster stated,,,, you probably gave him a lot to think about later when he cools down.......You handled the discussion so well.....maybe Gus and Dorothy might open their minds a bit to exploring their religion and whether it is truly "god-inspired".....

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