Will the Real "Great Crowd" Please Stand Up!!!

by rockhound 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • rockhound
    rockhound

    In doing some research on the "Great Crowd" or "Great Multitude", I found some interesting Watchtower articles that brought to the fore a very thought provoking question for all Jehovahs Witneses. Please follow the paper trail.

    The Watchtower of May 15,1995,p.20

    18 In 1935 a bright flash of light revealed that the great crowd mentioned at Revelation 7:9-17 was not a secondary heavenly class. It had been thought that the ones mentioned in those verses were some of the anointed who had not been fully faithful and so were standing before the throne instead of sitting on thrones reigning as kings and priests with Jesus Christ. But there simply is no such thing as being partially faithful. One is either faithful or unfaithful. So it was seen that this prophecy referred to the numberless great crowd from all nations who are now being gathered and whose hopes are earthly. They are "the sheep" of Matthew 25:31-46 and the "other sheep" of John 10:16.

    Please note: Watchtower identifies the "Great Crowd" the SAME as the "the sheep" of Matthew 25:31-46, and the "other sheep" of John 10:16

    To sum up, the

    "Great Crowd"="the sheep"="other sheep" (ALL THE SAME GROUP)

    The Watchtower of Feb.15, 1995,p.8 enlightens us still further

    2 Despite the latest advances of medical science, death still rules as king even today. While this is no surprise, some may have been somewhat disappointed when they finally came face-to-face with this longtime enemy. Why? Well, back in the 1920’s, the Watch Tower Society proclaimed the message "Millions now living will never die." Who would these millions be? The "sheep" spoken of in Jesus’ remarks about the sheep and the goats. (Matthew 25:31-46) These sheeplike ones were prophesied to appear during the time of the end, and their hope would be everlasting life on a paradise earth. As time went by, God’s people gained a better understanding of the position of these "sheep" in Jehovah’s purposes. It was realized that these obedient ones were to be distinguished from the stubborn "goats," and after the destruction of the latter ones, the sheep would inherit the earthly realm of the Kingdom that had been prepared for them.

    Please note: the "Millions now living will never die" are the SAME "sheep" spoken of at Matthew 25:31-46

    To sum up, the

    "Great Crowd"or "Great Multitude"="the sheep"="other sheep"="Millions now living will never die" (ALL THE SAME GROUP)

    The Watchtower 1985, March 1,p.14 adds to this list:

    8 However, would Jehovah "shine forth" only in behalf of the anointed ones of the ‘little flock of Kingdom heirs’? (Luke 12:32) No, for the years 1931 through 1938 proved to be a grand period of further enlightenment, as The Watch Tower began to focus clearly on another group. The study article in its issue of September 1, 1931, was entitled "MAN WITH THE WRITER’S INKHORN," this being based on Ezekiel 9:1-11. After identifying the ‘writer’ as the anointed remnant, The Watch Tower made this comment:

    9 "The commandment is given to put a ‘mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and that cry, for all the abominations that be done in the midst’ of Christendom. . . . The Lord tells of a class of persons whom he will ‘deliver in a time of trouble and keep alive and bless upon the earth.’ (Ps. 41:1, 2) This must be the class of persons that are often described as ‘the millions now living that will never die’." Today, it is thrilling actually to see millions of these being marked for preservation, as they put on the true Christian personality, in a dedicated relationship to Jehovah through Christ Jesus.—Genesis 22:15-18; Zephaniah 2:1-3; Ephesians 4:24.

    Please note: The "millions being marked for preservation" are the SAME as the "Millions now living that will never die"

    To sum up:

    the "Great Crowd"or "Great Multitude"="the sheep"="other sheep"="Millions now living will never die"="millions being marked for preservation" (ALL THE SAME GROUP )

    The Revelation,It's Grand Climax at Hand book p.120 par.4

    4 Some years later, in 1931, Vindication, Book One, discussed Ezekiel chapter 9, identifying those persons marked on the forehead for preservation at the world’s end as the sheep of the above parable. Vindication, Book Three, released in 1932, described the upright heart attitude of the non-Israelite man Jehonadab, who joined Israel’s anointed King Jehu in his chariot and went along to see Jehu’s zeal in executing false religionists. (2 Kings 10:15-17) The book commented: "Jehonadab represented or foreshadowed that class of people now on the earth during the time that the Jehu work [of declaring Jehovah’s judgments] is in progress who are of good will, are out of harmony with Satan’s organization, who take their stand on the side of righteousness, and are the ones whom the Lord will preserve during the time of Armageddon, take them through that trouble, and give them everlasting life on the earth. These constitute the ‘sheep’ class." In 1934 The Watchtower made it clear that these Christians with earthly hopes should make a dedication to Jehovah and be baptized. The light regarding this earthly class was shining ever brighter.—Proverbs 4:18.

    Please note: the "Jehonadab" are the SAME as the "sheep"

    To sum up: the "Great Crowd"or "Great Multitude"= "the sheep"="other sheep"="Millions now living will never die"="Millions being marked for preservation"="Jehonadabs" (ALL THE SAME GROUP )

    The Watchtower of March 1,1985 p.14 Rutherford pretty well summed it all up:

    12 These flashes of prophetic light prepared the ground for the historic discourse on "The Great Multitude," given May 31, 1935, by the president of the Watch Tower Society, J. F. Rutherford, at the Washington, D.C., convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses. What a revelation of divine truth that was! Presented at that time was conclusive proof identifying the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9 with the Lord’s "other sheep" of John 10:16, with the Jehonadab class, with those marked in the forehead for survival, with the millions now living who will never die, and with "the sheep" that are separated from "the goats" and will inherit everlasting life in the earthly realm of God’s Kingdom. All of this was covered in The Watchtower, August 1 and 15, 1935.

    (ALL THESE CLASSES ARE THE SAME GROUP WITH DIFFERENT NAMES)

    As you can see from the following, the Society thought they had it right:

    Watchtower 1986,May 15,p.14

    17 Thus, in 1923 Jesus’ great prophecy about the sheep and the goats was properly understood, and it was discerned that the whole world was under judgment. (Matthew 25:31-46)

    Watchtower 1938,Feb 1,p.35

    "The Lord revealed to his people the meaning of the parable of the sheep and the goats, showing how the 'sheep' only would be spared by Jehovah when his wrath is expressed at Armageddon. All this information came not from or by man, but by the Lord God..."

    Then along came the Watchtower of 1995, Oct 15,p.18 par.22-26 and completely devastated all of the above, along with all the rest of the interpretations on this subject for the pryer 60 years.

    22 Does this parable apply when Jesus sat down in kingly power in 1914, as we have long understood? Well, Matthew 25:34 does speak of him as King, so the parable logically finds application since Jesus became King in 1914. But what judging did he do soon thereafter? It was not a judging of "all the nations." Rather, he turned his attention to those claiming to make up "the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17) In line with Malachi 3:1-3, Jesus, as Jehovah’s messenger, judicially inspected the anointed Christians remaining on earth. It was also time for judicial sentence on Christendom, who falsely claimed to be "the house of God." (Revelation 17:1, 2; 18:4-8) Yet nothing indicates that at that time, or for that matter since, Jesus sat to judge people of all the nations finally as sheep or goats.

    23 If we analyze Jesus’ activity in the parable, we observe him finally judging all the nations. The parable does not show that such judging would continue over an extended period of many years, as if every person dying during these past decades were judged worthy of everlasting death or everlasting life. It seems that the majority who have died in recent decades have gone to mankind’s common grave. (Revelation 6:8; 20:13) The parable, though, depicts the time when Jesus judges the people of "all the nations" who are then alive and facing the execution of his judicial sentence.

    24 In other words, the

    parable points to the future when the Son of man will come in his glory. He will sit down to judge people then living. His judgment will be based on what they have manifested themselves to be. At that time "the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one" will have been clearly established. (Malachi 3:18) The actual pronouncing and executing of judgment will be carried out in a limited time. Jesus will render just decisions based on what has become evident about individuals.—See also 2 Corinthians 5:10.

    25 This means, then, that Jesus’ ‘sitting down on his glorious throne’ for judgment, mentioned at Matthew 25:31, applies to the future point when this powerful King will sit down to pronounce and execute judgment on the nations. Yes, the judgment scene that involves Jesus at Matthew 25:31-33, 46 is comparable to the scene in Daniel chapter 7, where the reigning King, the Ancient of Days, sat down to carry out his role as Judge.

    26 Understanding the parable of the sheep and the goats in this way indicates that the rendering of judgment on the sheep and the goats is future. It will take place after "the tribulation" mentioned at Matthew 24:29, 30 breaks out and the Son of man ‘arrives in his glory.’ (Compare Mark 13:24-26.) Then, with the entire wicked system at its end, Jesus will hold court and render and execute judgment.—John 5:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

    27 This clarifies our understanding of the timing of Jesus’ parable, which shows when the sheep and the goats will be judged. But how does it affect us who are zealously preaching the Kingdom good news? (Matthew 24:14) Does it make our work less significant, or does it bring a greater weight of responsibility? Let us see in the next article how we are affected.

    This issue of the Watchtower in 1995 completely pulled the foundation out from under their house of interpretations about the sheep, Great Crowd, Millions never dying,Millions being marked in the forehead, Jehonadab class, and every other class that is tied to the "sheep" that have NOT been identified or separated in the past, present, but according to this article in 1995 will be a future event.

    The Big Question is, If the Great Crowd,Great Multitude, sheep, other sheep, Millions that never die, Millions who are marked, Jehonadabs, are (ALL DIFFERENT NAMES FOR THE SAME GROUP) as shown above, and the SHEEP have NOT been indentified, or separated,or judged, then How can any Jehovah's Witness say they have a scriptural foundation to be a part of any of the many groups mentioned that are the SAME thing as the SHEEP? Think about it!!!

    ROCKHOUND

  • skyman
    skyman

    Now why would you want to confuse me. LOL.

    Thank you for the research. I love stuff like this.

  • dorayakii
    dorayakii

    Wow, yes, after reading it a couple of times, i see now.

    The WTS tels us that the sheep have not been chosen yet, but in the same breath tells us that we are the sheep. Somewhat illogical...

    Your research is much appreciated rockhound.

  • blondie
    blondie

    I can remember a discussion years ago that all the great crowd are of the other sheep but not all the other sheep are of the great crowd.

    Great crowd means only people who survive the great tribution.

    Abraham is not a member of the great crowd but only the other sheep.

    And actually since the great tribution has not occurred yet per the WTS, no one has survived it yet so no one is of the great cowd yet.

    Follow that.

    In mathematical terms, the great crowd is a subset of the other sheep.

    It made for lively discussions in the car during frield service.

    Finally the WTS had to print a QFR.

    w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers

    Technically

    speaking, is there a difference between the Biblical terms "other sheep" and "great crowd"?

    Yes, though we should not be unduly sensitive about word usage or be upset if someone uses the terms interchangeably.

    Most Christians are familiar with the passages where we find these terms. John 10:16 is one. There Jesus said: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." The other expression, "great crowd," appears at Revelation 7:9. We read: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

    Let us consider John 10:16 first. Who are the sheep? Well, it would be good to fix in mind that all of Jesus’ loyal followers are referred to as sheep. At Luke 12:32, he called those of his disciples who would be going to heaven the "little flock." A flock of what? Of sheep. The "sheep" of the "little flock" will be part of the Kingdom in heaven. However, there are others, those with a different hope, whom Jesus also views as sheep.

    We can see this in John chapter 10. After speaking about sheep such as his apostles whom he would call to life in heaven, Jesus added in verse 16: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring." Jehovah’s Witnesses have long recognized that in this verse Jesus was speaking of people having the prospect of life on earth. Many faithful ones in pre-Christian times, such as Abraham, Sarah, Noah, and Malachi, had such prospects. So we can rightly include them as part of the "other sheep" of John 10:16. During the Millennium, such faithful pre-Christian witnesses will be resurrected and will then learn of and accept Christ Jesus, becoming "other sheep" of the Fine Shepherd.

    We also know that since the general call of the heavenly class ended, millions have become true Christians. These too are rightly termed "other sheep," since they are not part of the "little flock." Rather, the other sheep today look forward to living right on into an earthly paradise.

    Now, what can be said about the identity of the "great crowd" mentioned at Revelation 7:9? Well, look at verse 13 and the question, "Who are they and where did they come from?" We find the answer at Revelation 7:14: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation." So the "great crowd" is composed of those who come out of, or survive, the great tribulation. As verse 17 says, they will be ‘guided to fountains of waters of life’ on earth.

    Understandably, though, for these to survive the approaching great tribulation, they must earlier have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, becoming true worshipers. Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term "great crowd" to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.

    In summary, we might remember "other sheep" as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a "great crowd" with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the "other sheep," and they are part of the "great crowd" as well.

    It is worth repeating that, fine as it is to be clear on these specifics, there is no need for any Christian to be overly word conscious—what might be called word critical. Paul warned about some who were "puffed up with pride" and involved in "debates about words." (1 Timothy 6:4) If we personally recognize certain distinctions between terms, fine. Yet, we need not, either outwardly or inwardly, be critical of another who may not use Biblical terms quite as precisely.

  • bother_forever
    bother_forever

    All i can say is I feel sorry for the next JW to call at your door. Good work!

  • Forscher
    Forscher

    It just goes to show how they are "like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about." (James 1:6) Since they lost their inspired oracle (Fred Franz), they just don't know what they're about.

    ;-)

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Hebrews 11:1 to 12:1 mentions "The Great Cloud" of witnesses, who did not get the fulfillment of the promises. I guess that the great cloud is waiting for the great crowd or are they one and the same, all sheep? In which case the latest on this is the separation of the sheep from the goats after the great tribulation and before armaggedon, sometime in - between, no separating at the door to door work. On and on it goes!

    Blueblades

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    So, are the Witnesses of the opinion they are doing a separating work . . . or an identification work?

  • Netty
    Netty

    Thanks for all the research, blondie and rock hound, but ay chihuahua, my head hurts a little...

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    I still don't see one good reason for the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation to change the teaching about the sheep and the goats. It was a long accepted understanding of the long time Witness people and it wasn't something that would likely ever bother the new Witnesses either.

    It's like they were looking for a reason to poke another hole in their own boat. From a pragmatic standpoint, it made no sense. Messing with the blood treatment guidelines, makes sense. Messing with the generation prophecy might have made sense but the way they did it didn't make sense.

    Why didn't they just deny they ever taught a 1914 generation prediction like they denied they ever taught a prediction for 1975? Denials are much easier for the Witness people to understand than a new, conflicting understanding. They know this but they seen to prefer returning to a strategy that hasn't worked well in the past. I have to wonder why.


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