Specific Last Days Question

by robhic 4 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  robhic

  I have a document I found somewhere a while ago of 9 questions to ask "where in the Bible is this clearly stated?" It is a few of the common JW doctrines that are not spelled out any place in the bible (1914, etc.).

  Number 6 is:

  6. That the "last days" began in 1914, and that when the apostle Peter (at Acts 2:17) spoke of the last days as applying from Pentecost on, he did not mean the same "last days" that Paul did (at 2 Timothy 3:1)? Where is this clearly stated? (Scriptures below for reference.)

  ** Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:

  ** 2Ti 3:1 But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come.

  I don't understand this comparison or its relevance. Can anyone shed some light on this question and what it is saying? I am no bible scholar nor a JW so please keep it fairly simple. If I have occasion to mention it to a JW in conversation I'd at least like to know what I'm talking about! The other 8 are fairly straightforward.

  Thanks for any help,

  Robert
• 

  Narkissos

  I guess the context of both quotations is sufficient:

  But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say. Indeed, these are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning.
  No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
  'In the last days it will be, God declares,
  that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
  and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
  and your young men shall see visions,
  and your old men shall dream dreams.
  Even upon my slaves, both men and women,
  in those days I will pour out my Spirit;
  and they shall prophesy.
  And I will show portents in the heaven above
  and signs on the earth below,
  blood, and fire, and smoky mist.
  The sun shall be turned to darkness
  and the moon to blood,
  before the coming of the Lord's great and glorious day.
  Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
  "You that are Israelites, listen to what I have to say: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power, wonders, and signs that God did through him among you, as you yourselves know-- this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law. But God raised him up, having freed him from death, because it was impossible for him to be held in its power.
  For David says concerning him,
  'I saw the Lord always before me,
  for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken;
  therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
  moreover my flesh will live in hope.
  For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
  or let your Holy One experience corruption.
  You have made known to me the ways of life;
  you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'
  "Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying, 'He was not abandoned to Hades,
  nor did his flesh experience corruption.'
  This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses.
  Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear.
  For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
  'The Lord said to my Lord,
  "Sit at my right hand,
  until I make your enemies your footstool." '
  Therefore let the entire house of Israel know with certainty that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified."

  The "event" of Pentecost is clearly interpreted as a fulfillment of the "prophecy" -- including its "last days" setting.

  You must understand this, that in the last days distressing times will come. For people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, brutes, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid them!
  For among them are those who make their way into households and captivate silly women, overwhelmed by their sins and swayed by all kinds of desires, who are always being instructed and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth. As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these people, of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith, also oppose the truth. But they will not make much progress, because, as in the case of those two men, their folly will become plain to everyone.

  What is first described as future, in the prophetic mode, is then considered as the depiction of people contemporary to the writer. Here the fact that it is a later writer pretending to be Paul might account for the dissonance.
• 

  robhic

  Narkissos:
  
  Thank you for your reply. I must really be slow because it still doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. Although after reading your post and the scriptures in context I think it is making a bit more sense to me.
  
  Maybe after I read it a few more times I'll grasp the significance. Either that or change my list of 9 things to a list of 8 things!!!
  
  Thanks again for the depth of your reply,
  
  Robert
• 

  Hellrider

  Not sure I understood your question. Did you mean WHY JWs set the "beginning of the end times" to be in 1914? The reason for the year 1914 is a ridicoulous math puzzle in the Bible, I didn`t understand it while I was in JWs (I grew up in it, but left at 15, and was to young then to understand some of the basic beliefs...to me it was all just a huge pile of Armageddon-and-demons-crap). If you`re asking about the justification for the year 1914, I can explain it to you, but it`s a fairly complicated, difficult (and stupid) math puzzle. Just let meg know.
• 

  robhic

  Not sure I understood your question. Did you mean WHY JWs set the "beginning of the end times" to be in 1914?

  No, I think I have a grasp of the why part, I was just unclear as to what the difference or contradiction or whatever was between the bible verses cited. Read my first post for a better explanation. Both verses are about the "end times" but I am still a bit puzzled by the question from my list of "9 Things to Ask a JW" and that's why I am considering changing it to "8 Questions..."

  Robert