Whats your input to the explanation of 2 Cor. 12:2-4 (page 2)

Qcmbr

Paul was talking about himself and referring to the prophetic experience of having a vision.

There are three heavens in LDS thinking but its not likely that this is what he was alluding to (or maybe it was) but a prophet cannot see God without being transfigured and in all liklehood removed from an imperfect body (which could not withstand the experience - actually one major reason why God doesn't show himself en masse or to loads of people - He can't)

Most visions involving God or the now glorified Jesus would need to involve being somewhere else and out of the body - in this case whatever that third heaven was.IMHO.

Elsewhere

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago

This could not possibly be Paul referring to himself because he is used the word "knew" which is the past tense of know.

I'm only ware of two situations where one would use "knew" in reference to a person:

The person is dead
The one referring to the person no longer associates with or "knows" the person being referred to

This means that the person Paul "knew" is either dead or Paul no longer knows the person. Since Paul in not dead and Paul obviously knows himself, he could not be referring to himself.

Oh, and I don’t want to hear any crap about Paul no longer knowing his “past self”... that’s just stupid.

Qcmbr

Apologies - Joseph Smith taught that Paul was referring to himself! Its hard to try and keep to a fairly neutral biblical interpretation.

peacefulpete

Skyman, I think you misunderstood my post. The author did not have secret knowledge of anything he was using the popular mythology of the day. Intertestamental literature typically had prophets and patriarchs getting taken to heavens in visions in which the character was unsure if he was out of body or not. Moses, Abraham, Ezra,Enoch,Zephaniah and others all where given such heavenly encounters in the stories of the day. The author was trying to use the stories as a means of persuasion to his new Christ cult. These stories were not lost, we can read them today. They just were a fad of the time that among Christians was eventually superceded by other stories of saints and whatnot.

heathen

Relax elsewhere --- it's all speculation on our part , he could've been talking about the deciple stephen whom he helped stone to death while he declared that he saw jesus sitting at the right hand of God. He still could have been talking about himself in third person , something we won't know for sure , but it does seem that the moral of this particular passage is that showing humility was the most important thing .

Elsewhere

Relax elsewhere --- it's all speculation on our part

huff... puff... huff... pufff...

JosephMalik

2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Skyman,

Paul experienced a vision, so his introduction should come as no surprise. Normal human senses no longer apply during such an experience and Paul was up front about it. In this case he was projected into the future the third heaven we normally know as the Kingdom that is to come. What he saw could be compared to the Revelation that John experienced and in his case was permitted to describe.

To identify the third heaven all we need to do is identify the first and second heaven. The first heaven of course was the Law covenant the Kingdom under which Jews existed. The second heaven is the Grace the body of Christ apart from Law under which we now exist. The third heaven will be the Kingdom of God in which Christ will rule and during which all resurrection will take place. The Kingdom that will bring an end to the seventh day.

Joseph

heathen

The first heaven of course was the Law covenant the Kingdom under which Jews existed. The second heaven is the Grace the body of Christ apart from Law under which we now exist. The third heaven will be the Kingdom of God in which Christ will rule and during which all resurrection will take place. The Kingdom that will bring an end to the seventh day.
Joseph

feel free to elaborate on this as to why you believe the heavens were mentioned in that way . I know that revelation does talk of the heavens as being established government rule over mankind and I find it interesting that you did equate the Apostle Paul writings with that. I too feel that Paul did have revelation and that later the apostle John exsplained in detail just what the kingdom of the heavens was and how it was going to arrive on earth .

JosephMalik

Heathen,

This is simple use of words that somehow have taken on mystical instead of practical use. For some reason we have forgotten how Jews used them in times past. Interchangeable words like God and Kingdom and heaven, government, authority, higher powers have been taken out of such context and put in a realm apart from this reality.

Heaven as a word for God, authority, Kingdom is well established in scripture. Paul wrote: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Higher powers (good or bad) exist by the God’s authority and represent the heavens that are now (reserved for judgment 2 Peter 3:7-12) a fact with which Peter also agreed. Yet they exist to maintain order on this earth until God’s kingdom replaces them. Put more explicitly Paul also wrote: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. This is simply another way of expressing these same facts but now using the word heavens instead of higher powers for such government (heavens) over humanity (earth). All features of such government or heavens is depicted in this verse as Paul brakes it down into its various (human) parts such as thrones, dominions principalities and powers. Why people take invisible as something not of this earth is strange as such rule from Rome was invisible but just as applicable to the Corinthians well being as were those ruling nearby and visible to them.

As you have shown there are other examples that can be brought in but the tendency to spiritualize and/or make something magical or mysterious of scripture conceals such simple and obvious facts.

Joseph

googlemagoogle

actually he was talking about me.

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Whats your input to the explanation of 2 Cor. 12:2-4

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