Should I push him over the edge? (page 2)

jula71

Well said Danny. It's cases like this that really sadden and have a affect on me.

Nathan Natas

Does he know about the UN affair?

Tell him you've heard about it and ask him to call the Service Desk at Bethel to check it out so he can "reassure" you.

DannyB - you know, one thing I like about you is that you seem to like to go in, guns blazing & freeing the hostage. Sometimes we have to be slow and gentle esp with the older ones. You just got to keep chatting to him. Remember you can only talk to him about these things....its HIM that must decide what he wants to do.... My experience with my old JW gran is that she is "quite happy where she is" It's too much for them to change at this stage especially if they are comfortable with what they are doing.

rebel8

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

what do yo give him back? Nothing, just emptyness.

I am a very happy athiest who has more life satisfaction and fulfillment than any brand of religion ever brought me. I don't believe a life w/o belief in god is empty or lacking purpose at all, any more than a life w/o belief in any other imaginary person is empty. However, it took me years to get to the realization that life is not empty w/o religion. It would take him longer since he's older (set in his ways more than I was at 18 when I left), and he doesn't really have that much time left.

So maybe all you do have to offer this elderly man is the remainder of his life confused and lonely. OTOH, maybe he would find some happiness and satisfaction with life that he's been missing all these years.

I like the idea of giving him a book and asking him to let you know if you can help. It's kinda a middle of the road approach. The ball is in his court then, so to speak. You won't be forcibly ripping away his cult, but you'll be leaving the door open if he wants to walk through it, offering your support for the journey.

PaulJ

they say you cannot teach and old dog new tricks. Maybe its too late...

Frog

Doesn't sound like you can provide him with any new information that he isn't already aware of, there may be an angle though that you've thought of that he hasn't. Seems to me that a reasonably free thinking man would have made the decision to leave earlier if he'd wanted to. If he is reasonably moderate in his beliefs, and he offers a balanced perspective to others, then perhaps he is better in the org than he is out. I think at times we feel so passionately and strongly about our anti-jw position that it becomes a bit of a game and a challenge to get others out, but often it's just the right word said at the right time, not just some vigilante exercise to give ourselves the satisfaction.

Full credit to you for seeing the value in this man:) frog

mtbatoon

Living a lie at 72 is the same as living a lie at 17. In the end it's up to him, short of kicking away his zimmer frame so he can't get to meetings or on FS you're not going to get him to do anything that's not his own decision anyway. It seems he's clued up anyway and has made his choice. Does he know of your own beliefs? It may be he's apostate already and just doing the best he can.

DannyBloem

Nathan Natas said:

Does he know about the UN affair?

Tell him you've heard about it and ask him to call the Service Desk at Bethel to check it out so he can "reassure" you.

That is just the thing I wanted to tell, but did not do. I think that would probable have been the push over the edge.Could not do it...

LouBelle said:

DannyB - you know, one thing I like about you is that you seem to like to go in, guns blazing & freeing the hostage. Sometimes we have to be slow and gentle esp with the older ones. You just got to keep chatting to him. Remember you can only talk to him about these things....its HIM that must decide what he wants to do.... My experience with my old JW gran is that she is "quite happy where she is" It's too much for them to change at this stage especially if they are comfortable with what they are doing.

Hi Belle, No I do not go guns blazing & free the hostage in. I think just the opposite. We had a good talk something that we both enjoy. Nobody tried to force their opinions on the other. I know it is him who have to do it, but I can provide information. We make our decisions on information right?
I think he is more happy in the organisation then outside actually. He can do a lot of good there also. Protect innocent persons from over active elders etc. Thanks for the advice.

Rebel said:

I am a very happy athiest who has more life satisfaction and fulfillment than any brand of religion ever brought me. I don't believe a life w/o belief in god is empty or lacking purpose at all, any more than a life w/o belief in any other imaginary person is empty. However, it took me years to get to the realization that life is not empty w/o religion. It would take him longer since he's older (set in his ways more than I was at 18 when I left), and he doesn't really have that much time left.

So maybe all you do have to offer this elderly man is the remainder of his life confused and lonely. OTOH, maybe he would find some happiness and satisfaction with life that he's been missing all these years.

Well maybe. Personally I do not think so that atheism gives more satisfaction then theism, but that is my experience, it can be different for anybody. It is not only religion in this case. It has a lot to do with the social aspects. Now he is busy, helping the 'sheep'. In a good way. He teaches them to think. etc. Without that it would be just an old man spending his days on the coutch watching television.

You say: life he is been missing al these years. What exactly is he missing? I do not think he missed anything actually

Frog said

Doesn't sound like you can provide him with any new information that he isn't already aware of, there may be an angle though that you've thought of that he hasn't. Seems to me that a reasonably free thinking man would have made the decision to leave earlier if he'd wanted to. If he is reasonably moderate in his beliefs, and he offers a balanced perspective to others, then perhaps he is better in the org than he is out. I think at times we feel so passionately and strongly about our anti-jw position that it becomes a bit of a game and a challenge to get others out, but often it's just the right word said at the right time, not just some vigilante exercise to give ourselves the satisfaction.

Full credit to you for seeing the value in this man:) frog

Thanks froggie. I agree here with you in full. Sometimes we have to see further then our own satisfaction.

Dogpatch

I agree with L.Toe. Maybe what he really needs is a few good friends to spend his remaining years with. Maybe that's what we're here for, sometimes just to be a friend to the hopeless ones. One person can make a hell of a difference when you have lost your dreams.

Randy

Balsam

Well I've been faced with this situation several times. I chose not to try to wake them up. The reason being as I have nothing that gives the feeling they love so much in replacement. To wake them up and them realize that they have been living a lie is frightening. Then they have to fine something they feel they have to put in its place. Then depression sets in because they come to realize that nothing is real except they are going to live and die. I don't ever want to responsible for throwing anyone into a depressive state that they might not ever find their way out of. It would be different if he questioned the authority of the organization, but he doesn't.

The only thing I do with active witnesses these days is to encourage them to think and reason on their own. If they find their way out on their own that is fine, they can do it at their own pace. But to rush this imformation in on folks not ready to hear it. especially older ones is, is probably impulsive. That is how I see it.

Balsam

Should I push him over the edge?

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