Another question for atheists, spirituality

by IP_SEC 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas
    But why do so many of us (the rhetorical us) insist on clinging to them? We're talking about the majority of humanity here -- this inner desire to find meaning in our existence and to express that desire by attaching ourselves to some man-made stories. Is this some kind of flaw in our psyche, our inability to face up to the possibility that THIS IS IT? Or is it some kind of a survival mechanism? A frustration with never KNOWING anything, feeling better because we have an explanation, albeit an unprovable, illogical one?

    There are several related factors which seem to blind us to our intrinsic wholeness and completeness, and you have touched on some of them. Generally, out of well meaning ignorance, society and family program the child that it is a separate entity and everything else experienced and sensed is other. On a phenominal level there is indeed a practicle use for division of things, but it's not the foundational Reality of things). The consciousness looking out the eyes comes to unquestionably accept that it is but a shard of existence. We then spend a human life-span seeking within "other", within phenomena for wholeness, via sex, marriage, family, work, politics, materialism, drugs, rape and murder, religion, etc.. Religion is popular because it admits to an existing wholeness (God/Heaven/Paradise) which we can reenter if we just follow certain criteria. It's in our innate nature to seek our Wholeness, seek Truth, and religion offers up a powerful promise. However, the religious interpretation of wholeness (Holiness) is a tiny thing separate, out there; and this, is a lie. The problem is a chronic one which effects humanity century after century, simply because the focus of attention and the search for wholeness is outward. We believe we need to earn or get something that we don't already have. So, generally the very first step in the journey is in the wrong direction and all goes to hell from there. No one tells us that we already are whole and complete, and that the direction for rediscovery is inward into the closest and most intimate of our Being. I'll back up for a moment and add that generally we come to identify unquestionably and concretely with our solitary and broken individualism. If someone did come along and say "you are infinitely more than what you believe yourself to be", we would see this as a threat to our personal survival, and we would do everything in our power to remain our precious shard of existence. We are in this mess, because we really don't want to know the Truth. j

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait


    Spirituality to me is a state of mind, a different consciousness of the reality around us.

    It can be induced by beauty of many kinds, love, lack of food or oxygen and in some cases drugs. A spiritual experience for me was standing in a dark field of sunflowers one night and watching the first slivers of the moon rising blood red against a backdrop of the milky way and occasional shooting stars.

    Sadly it can also be caused by delusional interpretations of stone age fairy stories.

    In primitive times the conviction of lifes "meaning" or "purpose" (can't adequately express this ) probably conferred greater likelihood of survival on those whose energies and mental state were pushed into the positive end of the emotional spectrum. As opposed to those who saw no point to any of it and gave up.

    Whether the ideas were true was not at the time essential. Experiences from the death camps have backed this view.

    Sadly, these delusional ideas now threaten our very survival in a way that healthy spirituality does not.

    HB

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    "Generally, out of well meaning ignorance, society and family program the child that it is a separate entity and everything else experienced and sensed is other." James Thomas


    I'm afraid that simply isn't true James, there is a simple experiment to see if a creature recognizes itself. All you do is place it in front of a mirror and see how it interacts with the mirror image. Babies very quickly will recognise themselves (obviously to do this they must have an innate sense of self (i.e. it isn't programmed into them by parents as you suggest) interestingly other primates also have this same sense of self.


    "At the end of the day the inclination of man to believe in a superior intelligent creator is innate" Green dawn


    I hate to be picky but are you saying it's innate or an inclination?

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas
    "Generally, out of well meaning ignorance, society and family program the child that it is a separate entity and everything else experienced and sensed is other." James Thomas
    I'm afraid that simply isn't true James, there is a simple experiment to see if a creature recognizes itself. All you do is place it in front of a mirror and see how it interacts with the mirror image. Babies very quickly will recognise themselves (obviously to do this they must have an innate sense of self (i.e. it isn't programmed into them by parents as you suggest) interestingly other primates also have this same sense of self.

    Caedes,

    Yes, of course there is a natural physical level of differentiation. There better be a distinction between this body and that of fire, lion, etc.. If you read my posts you will see that I am referring to the Self which is beyond the mind generated conceptual-self. What I am concerned with is extremely difficult, perhaps impossible to relay through words. Taking things out of context will likely make it all the worse.

    j

  • tdogg
    tdogg
    Do you have it? What is it to you? What accounts for it in the evolutionary model?

    I am an athiest and also a musician and a song-writer. I have it.

    And no, there is NOTHING that accounts for it in the evolutionary model. In a study of psycho-acoustics, this is one point made early on : there is (so far) no explanation for the level of sophistication that exists in the human hearing process. I would thank God for music, if he existed, so instead I will just enjoy it.

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