Free-will V.S predestiny

Sargon

It's been a long-long time since i shared any deep thoughts on religion... so please bear with me.
i was fishing this morning...since they weren't biting it gave me time to ponder;
One of the concepts that caused me to leave the X-tian faith is the conundrum that boggles my mind when i consider free-will.
I've made the argument in the past that Adam didn't have any free-will in the garden of Eden.
Now, keep in mind, i do realize that this is all mythology... but since so many choose to treat this as historical fact; i will deal with it on this basis.

Most of the genesis account, is written vaguely, and in generalities. But the gospels can be quite specific at times in the events of jesus' life.

If Christ knew that peter would disown him 3 times before the cock crowed; then this means that peter's actions were pre-ordained, and therefore peter didn't have any free-will.
IF by chance, peter had not disowned Christ... then Christ would have been wrong... and hence imperfect.
If christ were imperfect... then the whole basis of christianity would not make sense. IE... the point in christs life, was to be a sacrifice to God... a perfect life in exchange for the perfect life Adam gave up.
So Peter had no choice... once Christ made his prediction.

My 2 cents on a fishing day

kwintestal

Hey Uncle Sargon!

I agree. I remember questioning my dad about that when I was 8 or 9. He didn't get it. Really though, if you belive in this, what would be the point in trying if everything is alread mapped out for you?

Your nephew, Kwin

Elsewhere

Regarding the question of whether we truly have free will or whether everything is predestined, here is how I see it... it is completely out of our hands and therefore irrelevant.

I have to admit that I am inclined to think that if our actions are all preordained by a higher intelligence, then I cannot accept the idea of morality or law because it means that no matter what we do it is in accordance with the plan that this higher intelligence has set into motion.

Will Power

OK, I'll bite

one of the qualities anc characteristics of God, real or imagined, is the almighty power who knows every hair on each head that has ever lived including all the foreknowledge of every choice that our free-will allows.

Just because Jesus knew ahead of time what Peter would choose - doesn't mean Peter only had one choice. His choice was based on self-preservation, as well as perhaps the "post" he was given with the "keys to the kingdom". Kind of the first "theocratic warfare" lie.

lol

good question & by the way Happy Birthday Sargon Sorry I didn't bake a cake - will this one do?

will p

gumby

Hey Sargon.....ya danged ol' bastard!

So Peter had no choice... once Christ made his prediction.

Jesus didn't predict Peters bertrayal untill just the end......when Peter was beggining to get chicken. Peter used to be a mean asskicker....then he turned chicken. Jesus has his limits with predictions ya know. He knew Nathaniel was sittin by a fig tree before he picked him as an apostle......but he prolly never thought of the guy before that.

He picked Judah's as an apostle, but didn't figure out he was a traitor till traitorous feelings began in Judahs. He was prolly a cool guy till he got greedy at the end when Jesus predicted his betrayal.

Only Jesus dad knows stuff more ahead of time than Jesus. Jesus dad knew who would make up the bride of christ before the founding of the world. He's the bastard your lookin for. He's the guy who knows shits gonna happen and let's it happen anyways. If ya find him....let me know, cuz I wanna kick em in the nutsack!

Gumby

I quit!

Well what the heck. Let me take a shot at this and pretend I know what I'm talking about.

Time is lineal and it is part of our phyical universe. Time has physical properties. It is effect by such things as gravity and speed. Time had a beginning and I believe it will have an end. It probably came into existence along with the big bang. What was before this? Who knows. A primative understanding of God led people to believe God was inside time and part of the Universe, an old guy sitting on a throne out there somewhere. If you take it that God is out side of time then all human events might be see by him at the same time or in some way we have no possible way of understanding. All the things we do past present and future could be viewed by him at the same time. Kind of like we are on a merry go round and he is off to the side seeing all things done on it pass before him. Not a good analogy but the only one I can think of right now. In Gods eyes the death Caesar, Christ and your uncle Charlie might all be going on all at once. Seeing all things happen in this fashion it would be easy for him to know which course we will take or did take depending on how you look at it.

Sargon

That reply makes absolutely no sense at all. Perhaps if i smoke a joint, I may understand what you mean,

EvilForce

Ok, Sargon....once you smoke the "kind bud" can you clue me in? Thanks!
LOL

gumby

All I had was one beer and I made that genius type comment. You don't need no stinking weed to talk smart like me ....ya silly knuckleheads!

Gumbong

Navigator

Actually, what I Quit is proposing regarding time is a fairly common view among many scientists. I've read several descriptions that use the "coiled rope" analogy. Although to our human minds it "plays out" in lineal fashion, from outside one can see the whole coil. Just because everything that happens has already happened doesn't mean we didn't have "free will" at the time. I used to fly low level missions in C-130 aircraft over the mountains in West Virginia. From my perspective of several thousand feet, I could see that cars were going to pass each other long before they were aware of each other on those narrow winding mountain roads. From the perspective of those drivers, I was "outside of time" in a very limited way. Discussions on "free will" are often colored by the ridiculous notion that those who refuse to accept God's headship will be destroyed. We can delay(from our human point of view) but not defeat the will of God for us to be in heaven with HIM. No one is going to be lost. We are all created in the image and likeness of God and God cannot lose part of HIMSELF.

Free-will V.S predestiny

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