Is Love of God Real?

by donkey 31 Replies latest jw friends

funkyderek

God does not want to take away anyones free will, he will not force us to like him.
It sounds like that's exactly what he's doing. "If you don't like me, I'll torture you for all eternity." How is that not forcing?
Evanescence

Hi Evanescence
I checked your profile but no Bio. Whats your story?
Are you an Ex JW that converted to Catholicism? If so I'd be interested to know why.
My children are going to a catholic school [thjey are baptised], and my wife is catholic [born and bred so to say]. What I find interesting is she doesn't believe in a litteral hell [even though this is part of her faith]. I have attended mass with her and the kids a couple of time and find the traddition / ritual to be a nice change from what i'd experienced as a JW.
One defination of faith I looked up once was: belief without evidence. To have faith in this modern world is a rare thing, it can be defended, it can be domonstated, but by defination, it cannot be proved.
My personal belief is that a divine being, or creator exists, and that he would is somewhat less petty than what is portrayed in the bible, certainly not a dictator, and no phycopath. We should love him becasue of the gift of exisitance. While I don't accpet there is a litteral hell, I do agree that for there to be a resurection or any after life then there has to be a soul, and through info on this site I can also understand how the origin of the Trinity may have came about. Something along the lines there is only one God, yet Jesus was also a God, therefore he must be the God. It was an attempt by early Chrisitans to rationalise the old testiment with the new christan teachings, anyway it made sense - not in anyway the evil conspricy the JW's portray. I'm open to fresh ideas although have 17 years of JW information focused on showing the error of every other religion makes it damn hard to rediscover any faith at all afterwards. Personally I've come a long way - probalbly the biggest step was being up the front of the local Cathloic church doing the parents bit when my kids were baptised.
On subject of the bible I think the polite thing to say is that it's not well understood. Some of it may well be divine [round earth, hanging on nothing was an advance concept] but I think there a fair mix of human influecne - could every thought the prophets and co put to writing be inspried, or were some just bad dreams. Did they sometimes elaborate or exagerate - point is we don't know. I think people can take the bible far to literally, or put meanings to it that are open to interpretation. Given this I'm not going to attribute god with burning people - I don't understand why Jesus said what he did - but it's incompatable with my view of god. If I'm wrong I guess I will have a warm after life.
Hello Jimakazi, Sorry I never bothered to write a bio, I'll write one up soon I don't have much of a story, I was born and raised a catholic I got baptised at the age of 2. I am just interested in the Jehovah's Witness and religon, and I love posting on forums so yeah... I gotta admit I don't like the idea of hell myself! it is a common question and an issue that many believes stumble apon why would an all loving god send people to hell? Evanescence
Evanescence

Hello Jimakazi
If you are interested in stories about ex-jws conerting into catholic then go to this site: http://www.catholicxjw.com/
Evanescence
andy2tanx

'Are you sure about that? God is trying to talk to you but will you listen?'

How? By writing a book full of fairy stories? By sending people to earth witl a load of irrelevant ramblings? How exactly is god trying ot speak to us? I thought it was all powerful. Has it not heard of the phone, the TV, the internet, e-mail, snail-mail? Where is this marvellous speech coming from god? The Bible. Don't make me laugh. Why would an all popwerful ominpresent being use an old fashioned mode of communication that is sure to be bastardized by every one that reads it? WHY?

'God really loves you all, whether you believe in him or not, it will not change the facts.' So god loves us. Thats why we're constantly threatened with not serving him and the result being dying at armageddon, going to hell, getting reincarnated as a work, whatever, take your pick. Jesus, thats REAL love aint it.

'Know that he is there to ease your brokenheart from the damage the Jehovah's witness did to you,' you really believe that don't you? How can god ease a broken heart? The JW's didnt break my heart, the religions/liars of the world tried to, but I came through all that shite believing in the simplicity that we are just here for our time and thats it. Simple enough for ya?

And using the parable of the lost sheep? Are you saying that to god we have the same brain capacity as a sheep? The same amount of free will? Sheep have no free will, they feed when fed, bathe whaen bathed etc. We are far superior to sheep. If a god gave us free will and then punishes us for using it, then god is a total arsehole. Why create something you know will not do what you want it to do and then get pissed when that happens? You wouldn't. and thats why I dont believe in god.
bebu

Like I said....as long as these emotions exist for some mythical fictious creature named God it's perfectly fine.
But if it is for some imaginary friend its screwy.

Well, except for Calvin and Hobbes, eh? (j/k)
The difference is that an imaginary friend is a lot of hard work to keep up. I even tried it as a kid, but only after I read a cute story about some girl having one. I gave up gladly after 30 minutes.
However, I can tell the difference if I'm having a relationship with someone real or fictional. Really! I have fished enough to know the difference between a snag and a really large fish.
But I've learned that if I pray to God by chattering away and filling up the conversation from both ends, then that is still treating Him as a fictional being even though I might heartily believe He exists. I may as well have a relationship with a quick-build imaginary friend. This kind of relationship is not satisfying for humans; it never was meant to be. Likewise, a marriage should hopefully have deeper communication than simple friendships; but some wives chatter away without listening, while the husbands ignore their wives... so even a real-life relationship can be a combination of real/imaginary, imo.
God is not a puppet and myself the skilled ventriloquist/projecter. Who can find satisfaction in persisting in this fashion?? Cognitive dissonance sets in and one might become like a pharisee (a stubborn shell of 'piety') or else reject God entirely. But if we are really interested in the gamble, to investigate it all further, we come to another place. We eventually learn to shut up and let God be Himself if He is there. We search and listen. (Not listen to my own heart as a meditation, either, although the issues inside my heart dug out and laid out in the open make excellent fodder for conversation--not chatter.) It always amounts to getting honest with God (cathartic, shaking a fist at first, maybe?)... waiting... listening... replying... and eventually finding yourself at a crossroads in your spirit, always requiring more faith than you've needed before.
A relationship with God is different than other human relationships, but the elements of relationship (sharing, honesty, listening, trust) are there; enjoying an exchange with someone else is there, and thru those things it develops in more dimensions. God's presence comes.
bebu
tetrapod.sapien

Hell is only reserved for those who reject god.

nice! i am going to hell! schwing!
When the weather gets rough
And it's whiskey in the shade
It's best to wrap your savior
Up in cellophane
He flows like the big muddy
But that's ok
Pour him over ice cream
For a nice parfait

Well it's got to be a chocolate Jesus
Good enough for me - Tom Waits
so, since i categorically reject goddy-doddy, am i going to a categorical place in hell?
it is a common question and an issue that many believes stumble apon why would an all loving god send people to hell?
..."now if i may just direct your attention to my Reasoning from the Scriptures book." (j/k)
really though evan,
how can you profess love for neighbor, and in the same breath tell them that the god you subscribe to is going to fry them for not believing in him? that is not love. that's emotional abuse. god did not say "emotionally abuse your neighbor, just as i have emotionally abused you." he said to love. why the contradiction?
the fact of the matter is, as already brought out, that if god truly loved us (or even existed as per the church's paradoxical definition), he could and would be doing way more to save all the smart people who reject him. but think about his personality! do you really think he changed that much from the warlord of the OT to the peace-nick of the NT?
bebu,
We eventually learn to shut up and let God be Himself if He is there.
that really does not sound like taking the investigation a step further. it sounds like finally shutting up the cognitive dissonance and learning to live with whatever one has left over.
kazar

LOL I just can't stop laughing at all the posts. The replies are hilarious! Remind me to never get you posters riled up. Seriously, though, it is hard to grasp that someone on this forum would believe in a literal hell, but I am not going to debate the subject.
Evanescence

'Are you sure about that? God is trying to talk to you but will you listen?'

These are the common ways god communicates with us, 1. A quiet still voice inside deep down within you (you must push away all destractions, you must really focus on god) 2.Through others 3. Through the bible. God can communicate to us in the most extrodinary ways. Just look out, pray to god ask him a question and look out for the answer. I never called god a sheep in the story god is the shepherd. and once again I will add the bible uses imagery to explain things. Here are some scriptures,
"For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; weeping may last for the night, but a shout of joy comes in the morning." Psalms 30:5
"The righteous cry, and the LORD hears and delivers them out of all their troubles." Psalms 34:17
"He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds." Psalms 147:3 Do not fear, for I am with you; do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand." Isaiah 41:10
"When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, nor will the flame burn you." Isaiah 43:2 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart." Luke 18:1
"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God." 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
Matthew 11:28-29 Here is a good sight on these scriptures http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/exploring/promises/index_77684.html Evanescence
Evanescence

really though evan,
how can you profess love for neighbor, and in the same breath tell them that the god you subscribe to is going to fry them for not believing in him? that is not love. that's emotional abuse. god did not say "emotionally abuse your neighbor, just as i have emotionally abused you." he said to love. why the contradiction?
the fact of the matter is, as already brought out, that if god truly loved us (or even existed as per the church's paradoxical definition), he could and would be doing way more to save all the smart people who reject him. but think about his personality! do you really think he changed that much from the warlord of the OT to the peace-nick of the NT?

I never meant it that way I think you are getting me mixed up with the Watchtower . Satan is in existence because God created Lucifer. Lucifer turned away from God and was cast out, and thus we have Satan.

The existence of these types of things in no way denies the all-loving, all-good, all-powerfulness of God. We have been given the ultimate freedom in that we have the ability to choose. If there was nothing but good and nothing but perfection, we would never actually have the ability to choose. We would essentially be forced to God. God wants us to come to Him out of a purely free choice on our part. We are made in God's image. This means we choose whether we sin or don't, whether we worship God or not. If God hadn't made us in his image, we would be like robots - loving God because he programmed us that way. Would you want a child that never did anything wrong and always said "I love you" if you knew the child could not choose otherwise?

Now if we're given free will to choose what we do, then we must be allowed to sin. If we're allowed to sin, then we must be able to suffer the consequences of our choices and make others suffer as well.

Lucifer was similar to us in that he was made in God's image, but he and the other angels were made closer to God's image in that they have certain powers that we don't have.

You can't have free will without sin and suffering. If the sheep story didn't help here is another one, Can you imagine a mother shopping in the mall with her Child, as you know mothers love their children and get quite worried and upset when something happens to their belovered child. The Mother walks around with her child, then all of a sudden the child thinks to him/herself "hmmm I don't like shopping i'm outta here!" So the child runs away, the Mother then gets all upset and panicks Oh no! where has my child gone?!?! Now we all understand exactly how this mother will feel! the mother searches and searches gets search parties call the police puts up posters! This mother will never give up on searching for her child! never ever! So does that help explain how much god loves you and wants you back? He understands the pain the Jehovah's Witness as put you through and your ass is not nessesarely gonna fry in hell! I don't know what is going to happen I am not god and I cannot Judge. Catholics believe in Purgatory a place where souls are not completly lost and still have a chance to make it to heaven. I don't think you guys are destined for hell what the jw religion did to you will be taken into consideration well thats just my opinion anyways. Evanescence
Evanescence

LOL I just can't stop laughing at all the posts. The replies are hilarious! Remind me to never get you posters riled up. Seriously, though, it is hard to grasp that someone on this forum would believe in a literal hell, but I am not going to debate the subject.
HEY!!!! your all against me arn't ya? does it really hurt to hear others opinions? This debate is no fair 100 on to 1! lol! Evanescence

Is Love of God Real?

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