by bagpuss 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I have just started reading 'reasoning from the scriptures with jehovahs witnesses' by Ron Rhodes.
One of the suggested questions to ask a jw is,
If jehovahs witnesses are the only true witnesses for god,and if the witnesses as an organization came into being late in the 19th century,does this mean that god was without a witness forover 18 centuries of church history?
Can anyone remember the 'official' line on this and if you had been asked this as a jw how would you have responded?
If jehovahs witnesses are the only true witnesses for god,and if the witnesses as an organization came into being late in the 19th century,does this mean that god was without a witness forover 18 centuries of church history?
The witnesses believe that since the first century, Jehovah has ALWAYS had a faithfull slave class on the earth with each slave class feeding succesive generations. They believe there NEVER was time they didn';t exist since the fist century. The problem is....they cannot explain who Charels Taze Russell recieved his spiritual food from since their OWN publication dealing with their early history testifies "he found truth nowhere.....but rather took the bible off the shelf and god turned on the light in the 20th century". They cannot find their missing link.....rather they point to a handful of people who shared SOME of their early teaching and suggest they were the slave.
Gumby
I'm sure others will have more details, but if memory serves, the "official" response is:
"Jahoobee *DID* have an organization, he always has. In the first century, it was the apostles. Today it is WTBTS. Throughout the intervening centuries he has used faithful followers of Jesus." (Commence the crazy, arbitrary handwaving to indicate that they don't have any examples to back this up).
Actually, IIRC, at one time they suggested that Wycliffe was once used by god; interesting because at another time they lumped him in with the rest of "Christendom".
~Quotes, of the "They don't have any proof to back up that claim" class
The answer is clouded in fog.
Yes, there were some, but we don't know who they were.
w94 5/1 pp. 23-24 Why Jehovah’s Witnesses Keep on the Watch ***
Yet, Jesus had foretold that following the death of the apostles, the genuine heirs of the Kingdom (whom he likened to wheat) would continue to grow alongside the imitation Christians (or, weeds) until the time of the harvest. (Matthew 13:29, 30) We cannot today list with any certainty all of those that the Master viewed as wheat. But it is noteworthy that during the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries, there were men who risked their own lives and freedom to put the Bible into the language of the common man. Others not only accepted the Bible as God’s Word but also rejected the Trinity as unscriptural. Some rejected belief in the immortality of the soul and torment in hellfire as being completely out of harmony with God’s Word.
I am sure that somewhere I have read that William Tyndale is viewed as one of the anointed -or at least part of Gods Organization on earth
Actually Blondie, they speak out of both sides of their mouths as we all know. They have had numerous articles dealing with the Waldensenes and the Lolards who shared a belief or two the witnesses had. What makes this a bad argument is the fact that these same groups also believed things contrary to the society's early teachings.
I had a thread about the Waldensenes some time ago.
Gumby
I remember something to the effect that Jehovah had "witnesses" through the ages in that there were always some who's goal was to worship in truth as best they could from their understanding of the scriptures. They bring up Anabaptists and individuals who had to fight persecution from governments and the Church in order to keep integrity. I don't remember all those groups that they cite any more. There certainly wasn't one continuous organization calling on Jehovah throughout history, but it's made to sound almost as if there were.
At the time I was learning this stuff as a JW it seemed mystical and exciting. Oooooo...Jehoober made sure that there were small groups of folks keeping some sort of faith until the time was right for them to burst forth in the late 1800's under the guidance of a man who measured pyramids to explain Bible "prophecy"...which unfortunately proved to be false, but, hey, he meant well and at least something happened in one of the years he was keen on. Then this loose conglomerate of true believers got to be further "refined" and defined by a drunken despot who projected a couple of bogus dates of his own. Good thing they found "new light " in order to explain why all of Jehoover's top men kept screwing up.
It seems over the last few years they have been attempting to provide an answer to this by giving examples of people or groups of people that have worked to preserve and stand up for the bible. They have featured these groups in the WT or Asleep! mags.
Kwin
Actually Blondie, they speak out of both sides of their mouths as we all know
That's true. The WTS has backed away from identifying any groups between 100 and 1879 AD in recent years, backing away from previous statements about the Waldenses and similar groups, and individuals such as Wycliffe. I read those articles as a JW with a long family history in WTS lore. The WTS no longer identifies them as the wheat, true Christians, that I can see.
There used to be a list of individuals down to CTR, seven I think.
Note that he was viewed as the seventh, or "Laodician Messenger" to the Churches (Revelation 3:14) The first six are listed as: St. Paul, St. John, Arius, Waldo, Wycliffe, Luther. (The Finished Mystery, Karatol edition, 1918, p. 64)
Now my family go back to the early days of Rutherford and they believed that some of those people were the "wheat." But JWs today would have the watered, backed off version the WTS tells today.
Russell taught that each of the religions in Christendom had one or two pieces of "the truth" that they kept safe until the time of the end when they would all be gathered together in one group as the wheat were gathered out of Christendom.
The WTS always leaves themselves an out.
Blondie
I was told the catholic chruch was for a while. Then they strayed, and that's when the bible students rose. If the catholic church had kept to the truth, then they would have been his organization today.
