hi i am new to this forum and have been studying with the jehovah's
witnesses for about 8 months. i am considering becoming an unbaptized
publisher. i was associated with the "churches of christ" for the last
10 years. as we have just started studying "pay attention to daniel's
prophecy" i am having difficulties with the 607bce dating of the
desolation of jerusalem. from my previous studying of daniel i
accepted that 587 bce as the date for the desolation of jerusalem was
supported by historical and archeological evidence. it seems to me
that the 607 bce dating is the very basic element in the doctrinal
structure of the jehovah's witnesses and must have adequate evidence
to support it and to refute the evidence of historians and scholars of
christendom. and help would be appreciated...thanks
607 bce ?
by adversary 9 Replies latest watchtower bible
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adversary
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Narkissos
Welcome adversary.
This subject has been discussed a lot: in one word, there is no evidence for the Watchtower's stance.
You may start here, with a funny although fully documented thread which starts by showing, from the WT literature, that neo-babylonian chronology allows no room for the extra 20 years which the WT chronology requires: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx
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Honesty
The entire foundation of the WatchTower Society is based on 607 B.C.E. If that date is wrong the whole religion is proved to be false.
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Quotes
Welcome Adversary,
I agree with you: the 607BCE date is a pivotal foundation point, and also that there is no evidence to support it, but plenty to support 587BCE.
As already noted above my post, look to some LENGTHY, detailed threads for more info.
Interestingly, even WTS own literature agrees in the 587BCE date on occasion (they have to tell the truth some of the time, eh?).
I have summarized their dates which lead to 587BCE here: http://quotes.watchtower.ca/607bce-table.htm.
~Quotes, of the "if you can count, you know it was 587BCE" class -
Now What?
Welcome Adversary!
This is only one of many points of Watchtower pseudotheology. Gratz on catching this before you jumped in. Hopefully since this discovery, you will continue to think and carefully examine other claims from the Tower, as well as other groups. It's a jungle out there.
Perhaps a local jw apologist here on the boards would like to offer a supporting arguement?
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greendawn
The Watchtower people are the only ones in this world that believe in the 607 BC date, the reason being that if they drop it they will bring down with it many of their crucial doctrines. So they take flight from reality.
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JCanon
Welcome adversary. You are in a unique position since you are in the JW context. So though the debates over the date for the fall of Jerusalem has many sides and JWs have their own take on the evidence, I think it is more pertinent for you to understand why the 607BCE dating also does't work Biblically.
The 607BCE dating quite simply derives from dating the return of the Jews in 537BCE and adding 70 years to get 607BCE for the fall of Jerusalem. However, the last deportation was not the year Jerusalem fell but 4 years later in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar:
Jeremiah 52: 30 I n the twenty-third year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, Neb·u´zar·ad´an the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls. All the souls were four thousand and six hundred.
JW teach the land was completed desolated the same year that Jerusalem fell. But this is not the case. The actual Biblcial detail is that Gedaliah was killed the following year in the 20th of of Nebuchadnezzar and not the same 19th year though this is not specific. But we learn from Zechariah 1 and 7 that the 2nd year of Darius the Mede marked 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem and 70 years after mourning in the seventh month for Gedaliah fell in the 4th year of Darius the Mede. Thus there is a 2-year gap from when he began to be mourned and the fall of Jerusalem. This is consistent with his being mourned the year after his death which would have been the 20th year. The context of what happened as well, the word circulating about Gedeliah and then his offering they come in and harvest summer fruits including wine which is harvested as early as the fourth month points to the following year.
But more importantly, witnesses do not make it clear what happened to Jeremiah and Baruch after they were kidnapped and taken to Egypt. We know that God promised to send a sword to kill those who did not return to Jerusalem. But what happened to Jeremiah? The answer is that he was deported to Babylon in the 23rd year and thus the 23rd year deportation includes Jeremiah. This fulfills the prophecy regarding a few remaining ones from the sword who would return to Jerusalem.
28 And as for the ones escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all those of the remnant of Judah, who are coming into the land of Egypt to reside there as aliens, will certainly know whose word comes true, that from me or that from them.”’”
Therefore, Jerusalem was inhabited right up to the 23rd year. Thus the 70 years of exile which witnesses correctly recognize historically from the Bible did not begin in year 19 when Jerusalem fell, but at the time of the last deportation.
This is further confirmed by Josephus who comments on this in his Antiquities at 11:1:1. In this regard, while the witnesses use Josephus to confirm that the Jews indeed consider the 70 years to have occurred following the fall of Jerusalem and this is a literal 70 years, they misquote Josephus' reference in the specific since he dates the 70 years not with the fall of Jeruaslem but in line with the Bible with the last deportation. Here is his quote:
Josephus, Antiquities 11.1.1 IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.
"These poor people" is a reference to the people left in the land to do harvesting after Jerusalem fell who were finally deported and taken off their land at the time of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. This is when Josephus begins the 70 years. This is when the Bible begins the 70 years as well.
In conclusion, the best way to defeat the 607BCE argument, without getting involved with all the archaeological discussions is to attack the date Biblically and simply show that the 70 years did not begin until the last deportation. Further confirm that Gedeliah was still in the land the following year. Thus their claim that the 70 years was literal and post Jerusalem's fall per the Bible is correct. They quote Josephus to help confirm the Jews understood it this way generally, but misquote Josephus as to precisely when the 70 years begins which he dates at year 23 and not year 19 as does the Bible. So 607BCE can be dismissed regardless of what "pivotal" date one might be convinced to accept based upon conflicting records from this period.
607 BCE is wrong because it starts out Biblically wrong, dating the 70 years from the return back to the fall of Jerusalem when the 70 years do not begin until the last deportation, four years after the fall of Jerusalem.
OPTIONS: If you thus date the return in 537BCE as the witnesses do and secular history in a rare time when JWs actually agree with secular dating, then the last deportation occurs in 607BCE and Jerusalem would have fallen 4 years earlier in 611BCE. If you date the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE as does Martin Anstey, believing 82 years of fake Persian history was added by revisionists, then the last deportation occurs in 525BCE and the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE. So ostensibly 607BCE is always a wrong date no matter what.
I suggest you use this approach to challenge 607BCE as the wrong date when confronting witnesses since it is purely Biblical. The JW position will be that all secular sources not agreeing with the Bible are to be dismisssed; which is a good policy if you want the truth. But you must represent the Bible accurately when this is done. They do not do this with regard to the 70 years and thus 607BCE becomes a wrong date. If JWs truly believed the Bible as they say they do and had faith, they would be honest and date the last deportation in 607BCE and the fall of Jerusalem in 611BCE. But they don't and likely won't because it works out with their 1914 date would be too traumatic to adjust doctrinally for them. WWI beginning in 1914 gives that dating some strength. The 611BCE dating would move the 1914 event to 1910 AD, not such an eventful year, though pressured, they have been known to be quite creative in coming up with explanations. But so far, they choose to quietly be in error.
I hope the above was helpful. Plus if you use this approach, you can avoid the "apostate" marking since this is strictly a Biblcial discussion and you are not promoting 587BCE (also a wrong date Biblically though) as a better date to refute 607BCE. You can do it Biblically. This way you retain the Biblical JW belief in the literal 70 years ending with the return of the Jews, but you just begin it more accurately in year 23 rather than year 19. The fact that the Jews as well per Josephus understood the 70 years began with the last deportation also keeps things consistent with JWs quote from Josephus regarding the 70 years.
So you can challenge them on (1) the mathematics, year 19 vs 23, and (2) misqouting a historical source that agrees with the Bible.
JC
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ithinkisee
Holy crap JCanon .... that was a really good post.
I would have to say ... I ... um ... AGREE with you wholeheartedly. I like how you (JCanon) don't really commit to the 586 date but at least acknowledge that 607 is not even a close date.
Anyways, for anyone having to endure the weekly Daniel Book at the bookstudy, they attempt to weaken any critic's credibility early on. So taking the BIBLICAL approach is really the best effort.
My strategy (probably this week with my wife - but more on that later) is to run through the Alleymom K.I.S.S. method, then some books I got from the library, and then the scripture in Jeremiah 52, as well as the stuff in Zechariah.
My point when I am completed will be that it is not that I agree with the critics - I agree with the BIBLE.
At that point the question has to be asked to my wife, "If given the choice - do you take the Bible's viewpoint? Or the JW's viewpoint?"
By the way ... they are still sticking with 607 as of the August 1st Watchtower:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/94150/1.ashx-ithinkisee
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adversary
thanks for all the welcomes and advice., i especially liked jcanon's line of biblical only reasoning, also thanks to mrsjones and that great link to the K.I.S.S. approach of alleymom.... a little background info for those interested. i am 55 yeras old and was raised as a roman catholic, i went to catholic schools for 8 years. all my relatives are catholic. when i was 29 i got my 1st bible and thus began my journey. a friend who introduced me to the bible was an evangelical so i started with them and started to learn basic bible knowledge, after a couple of years with them and a switch from the king james to the nasb and niv i started corresponding with the assemblies of yahweh where i learned about the sacred and holy name of god, but they were into keeping the holy days of lev chapter 23 and the sabbath, etc. so i parted with them. for the next 5 years i studied with several fundamentalist groups, but was not satisfied. i then found the "churches of christ" and thought i found the true church of jesus. i was baptized by them after professing faith in jesus christ and repenting of my sins, i thus became a member of christ's body! i remained with them for about 12years, i finally had to leave , with great sadness of heart, because i couldnt stay in agreement with them about their belief in an eternal hell of torment, i was also politically neutral and could not support war. i still liked and did use god's name for all 12 years i was with them and this got under the skin of a couple of elders, so i left so that i wouldnt be a source of divisiveness and because i couldnt follow the counsel the elders were giving me about my doctrinal problems.after that i read a couple of books on the history of the n.t. canon and found that there was much disagreement about which books should be considered scripture ( i still have some serious questions about this ), the 1st 27 book canon the same as our current canon wasnt listed until 367 ce by athanasius. i found that in some christians didnt accept all of our 27 books, some accepted10-12 books others 22 books, some 24 books and some had additional books which are not part of our current canon. i concluded that it was impossible to know which books are inspired by god and which are not. i subsquently lost faith in the bible, but was becoming depressed, because i knew i needed god in my life. i then came into contact with the jehovah's witnesses and started studying with them. at first to show them that many of their beliefs about the bible were wrong. but as we studied, i found i was liking the people and they had some bible beliefs that i hadnt heard before and found to be very interesting, so we have been studying for 8 months now. i am considering becoming an unbaptized publisher, but have some concerns about the early history and teachings of russelll and rutherford. there are many teachings i dont understand yet but i have been blessed by what i have learned. i have been helped by many of the posts on this forum as well as other forums. i'll keep studying and prayinf to jehovah for his help. ..thanks to all....ron