Why are pigs "unclean" and what does "unclean" mean? (page 2)

blondie

"Cooking is one of the most common methods of assuring that ‘Trichinella’ are destroyed; a temperature of 170 F (77 C) substantially exceeds the thermal death point and is usually achieved if the meat is cooked until it is no longer pink "
Note the wording "170 F substantially exceeds" - they are being extremely cautious. Again, the actual temperature that kills the Trichinella is about 140 degrees F.

Other facts to keep in mind.
* Trichinella is killed when pork is frozen at minus 5 degrees F for 25 days OR to minus 22 degrees F for 25 hours.

* Ordinary curing and smoking does not kill Trichinella. (Trichinella also occurs in some wild game - this is what caused the problem with the cougar jerky mentioned above)

hamsterbait

Mary Douglas' book "Purity and Danger" discusses this very issue.

Her theory is (as i recall) that god created

1: flying creatures of the heavens

2: fish of the sea

3: domestic animals and wild animals according to their kind

4: creeping things of the earth.

The ancients then only viewed as clean those creatures which unambiguously fitted in with their classes of these animals.

eg - a chewer of the cud had to have cloven hooves like the clean cow. Hence rabbits could not be eaten.

A pig has cloven hooves but does not chew the cud, unlike a cow ergo unclean.

Fish have scales - no scales: unclean: eels and shellfish.

Creeping things of the earth must have leaper legs eg locusts. unclean millipedes scorpions etc.

Carrion birds fed on dead flesh rather than what other birds fed on, thus they in some respects resembled scavenger animals like the dog.

In other words any creature which blurred the distinction between the various classes of created creatures was viewed as unclean because it posed a threat to the universal order they thought god had made. Anyone eating their flesh would be taking disorder into their bodies: "YOu are what you eat."

HB

greendawn

I think not eating pork has a deeper mystical meaning for the Jews and the Moslems, other animals also carry diseases and trichinoma can be killed with thorough cooking.

Whatever pork symbolises. To the ancient Greeks "the pig" was a slang word for the female genitals.

Elsewhere

An animal that is in it's own excrement is considered unclean to the muslim faith.

Does this mean that people who are bedridden and must use diapers are considered unclean and must be avoided?

blondie

That's true, greendawn, and that is why the Jews could not eat a myriad of foods.

11

And Jehovah proceeded to speak to Moses and Aaron, saying to them: 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘This is the living creature that YOU may eat of all the beasts that are upon the earth: 3 Every creature that splits the hoof and forms a cleft in the hoofs and chews the cud among the beasts, that is what YOU may eat. 4 "‘Only this is what YOU must not eat among the chewers of the cud and the splitters of the hoof: the camel, because it is a chewer of the cud but is no splitter of the hoof. It is unclean for YOU. 5 8 YOU must not eat any of their flesh, and YOU must not touch their dead body. They are unclean for YOU. 9 "‘This is what YOU may eat of everything that is in the waters: Everything that has fins and scales in the waters, in the seas and in the torrents, those YOU may eat. 10 And everything in the seas and the torrents that has no fins and scales, out of every Also the rock badger, because it is a chewer of the cud but does not split the hoof. It is unclean for YOU. 6 Also the hare, because it is a chewer of the cud but it does not have the hoof split. It is unclean for YOU. 7 Also the pig, because it is a splitter of the hoof and a former of a cleft in the hoof, but it itself does not chew the cud. It is unclean for YOU.swarming creature of the waters and out of every living soul that is in the waters, they are a loathsome thing for YOU. 11 Yes, they will become a loathsome thing to YOU. YOU must not eat any of their flesh, and YOU are to loathe their dead body. 12 Everything in the waters that has no fins and scales is a loathsome thing to YOU. 13 "‘And these are what YOU will loathe among the flying creatures. They should not be eaten. They are a loathsome thing: the eagle and the osprey and the black vulture, 14 and the red kite and the black kite according to its kind, 15 and every raven according to its kind, 16 and the ostrich and the owl and the gull and the falcon according to its kind, 17 and the little owl and the cormorant and the long-eared owl, 18 and the swan and the pelican and the vulture, 19 and the stork, the heron according to its kind, and the hoopoe and the bat. 20 Every winged swarming creature that goes on all fours is a loathsome thing to YOU. LEVITICUS 11:1-20

But then when Christ appeared and took away the Law, these foods were okay for Christians to eat and I don't think that any medical connection had been made to pigs and rabbits carrying disease.

So it makes you wonder if the reason was because these animals carried disease, why weren't Christians then protected?

Blondie

AllAlongTheWatchtower

I was raised in a religion that followed the doctrine of clean and unclean meats, I'm not sure there IS any justification for it other than that it IS in the bible in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. Though many in the church I attended speculated that it was god's wisdom in not allowing us to eat things that were bad for our health, based on the logic that most of the animals listed as unclean were scavenger animals which could and did eat garbage and carrion. That theory supposes that such animals are less healthy to eat because their flesh must retain some of the poisons/bacteria etc that they consume. Of course the Israelites in biblical times had no way of knowing about bacteria and such, but my atheist viewpoint simply assumes that they noticed people who ate such things were less healthy in some way, and therefore banned them in their religion. Whether there are REAL health consequences to eating any such food or not, I doubt any scientific evidence is in existence, but I could be wrong. To this day because of my upbringing, I still have some reluctance to eat any pork products, and will usually buy beef bacon, sausage, etc unless its so hideously expensive that I just pass on it. Which it often is.

Anyone with any relevant information on this, I am extremely interested in it, as it is one of the ideas I have to attempt to discredit the JW beliefs with my wife. To my way of thinking, they are just nuts to have the blood doctrine which is based on old testament law, yet NOT also follow the clean and unclean meats laws which they often quote as evidence of the prohibition on blood. I have raised this point with her once or twice, and she even asked her study group, but then she reported back to me that they said the clean and unclean meats law was just not applicable anymore. I was flabbergast, I thought she would see then that they were full of sh_t, but she just accepted that. To me, that was proof they simply pick and choose what they want or make it up completely, I could not understand why she simply accepted what they told her.

talesin

EF

I have never come across that thought before, but it makes perfect sense. tks.

tal

frankiespeakin

Well I don't think those laws back then reflect any knowlege beyond thier culture, so the clasification of unclean has to do with thier cultural view piont and so I would suggest that you not go beyond that. The Jews have alway been a people to pay attention to cleanliness.

I think the pigs rolling in mudd was partly the cause, and a pigs loving to eat garbage like it is some grand desert, may also have played a part. IMO oink oink

proplog2

Jews & Arabs were basically nomadic people. Sheep and Goats had more utility for them. Nomadic people needed animals that could serve many functions. They could get wool from sheep. They could get milk from sheep and goats. And they were small enough to be eaten without having to store the left over meat. Sheep are also docile. Perhaps too docile when you consider they had to actually be told not to have sex with animals.

Pigs didn't fit into their life-style so they scorned the animal and the people who ate them.

Dan-O

I dounno, man. 'Scuse me .. I got some spare ribs on the grile out back. TTYL.

Why are pigs "unclean" and what does "unclean" mean?

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