Are you still a pacifist?

by wasasister 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    I'm one of those rare Brits that has a shotgun licence. I had an U/O Miroku which I swapped for a side-by-side AYA. I became good at clay pigeon shooting and skeet also.

    After a while I wanted to do some real shooting on live stuff so I went hunting twice every week and brought home lots to skin and eat.

    My most skilful moment was taking a pair of woodcock springing in opposite directions with a left and right shot which I proudly presented to Her Ladyship to put into the cooking-pot.

    My youngest son was admiring the birds and said "Are these God's creatures too, Dad?"

    You've guessed it, I have never fired a round since then. You see, I just had to find bigger and better stuff to shoot. Targets become tame, small guns seem to become just toys after a while. Bigger and better guns become the measure of a man amongst his fellow shooters just as cars do amongst drivers.

    Now I don't shoot at all, nor will I ever again.

    Englishman.

    ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

  • neyank
    neyank

    I have to say ditto to what Francoise has said on this matter.
    I also have never seen my guns, oh wait a minute,can't use the
    word gun, (those who were in the military understand what that means )
    have to call them weapons,--have never seen them hurt someone.

    I do respect the pacifist' ideals on this matter of owning guns BUT,
    we have to be realists here.
    We live in a very dangerous world and there are people who won't think twice
    about hurting you or your loved ones.
    If you as a pacifist do not want to protect yourself with a gun that's fine.
    But what about your loved ones?
    Would you really let harm come to your wife/husband,daughter,son or anyone else you love
    because you don't believe in guns?

    Not everyone that owns a gun would use it I'm sure,
    but I believe it's better to have a gun and know how to
    use it, than not have one and need it.

    neyank

  • Francois
    Francois

    Justa couple of points.

    Conservatives aren't propagandized into anything. Many efforts have been made in just the last 20 years to outlaw guns in this country. And it seems always to follow a pattern in various countries. First "we're just gonna ban these dangerous kinds" then "we just want to register these things so we can weed out the criminals" then "we're just gonna confiscate this kind right here" then "well, we're gonna confiscate 'em all"

    This has happened in Britan, in Canada, in Oz. The first thing Castro did was to confiscate all the guns, then he ended all other freedoms. And in this country, in each and every area where guns are tightly restricted, the crime rate immediately shoots up through the roof. Criminals know the citizens aren't armed, aren't "secure in their homes." And in areas where the citizens are known to be armed, the crime rate is very low (Example: Kennesaw, GA, where there is a law requring every home to have a gun.)

    Remember the Brady Bill? "We just want this one law to make this kinda cheap gun that was used in this assassination attempt illegal. We're not after larger, wider laws. This is it. When this is passed, we've accomplished our goals." Remember?

    In ceremonies the day the Brady Bill was signed into law, those statements magically changed to "Well, this is a great first step."

    Second amendment advocates should be pardoned, IMO, for regarding the assurance of leftists with a great deal of cynicism.

    Someone posted me privately last night and characterized my little story, above, as "extremist". I could hardly believe my eyes!! Just a scan OF THIS THREAD revealed someone whose house has been broken into twice, and someone whose husband has been murdered, and that's from a scan of this thread. I wonder if I've missed anything in this thread. I haven't read every post. Extremist? Have you all read the crime statistics in any detail?

    Far from being extremist, my little story becomes reality hundreds of times each day in this country alone. If anything, my little story doesn't go far enough.

    Someone said that topics like this are hard to deal with, and I certainly agree. At least I haven't noticed any of the usual name calling going on, at least not yet. I recognize this is an emotional issue, and that feelings run strong about it. And there seems to be no middle ground - like the abortion issue. There is either private gun ownership or there isn't; abortion or not.

    But I can tell you that conservatives do not trust the government, nor do they trust the left. There is a real fear of allowing even the tip of the camel's nose into the tent. Both the government and the left have sad histories that when the tip of their nose gets in the tent, the entire camel is in there with incredible speed.
    I don't think that anybody can identify one, ONE, power the people have given the government that the government hasn't abused. Not one.

    And Bill Clinton: "If the people's constitutional rights get in the way of the government's ability to govern, then those rights should be curtailed." This statement chills the spine. It indicates the president of the United States thinks that people's rights come from the government, instead of the government's power coming from the people. It's mind numbing. And I'm babbling. Sorry.

    (But I am impressed that this thread has gone as far as it has and no one is shouting; no one is calling names; the issue hasn't been emotionalized. This must be a group of real adults!!) Thanks.

    Francois

  • neyank
    neyank

    Hey PLH,
    Boxing lessons?????

    To bad you aren't closer to my area.
    We could get together and spar.

    But you would have to promise NOT to hurt
    me too bad.

    neyank

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    Conservatives aren't propagandized into anything.

    With all due respect, it's hard not to ROFL at that. That is precisely what a JW would say if you told them that the WTS propagandizes them.

    There may be some in this country who absolutely would like to ban guns; I've never met any of them. I have met many who would like some controls on guns, the way there is a control on who gets to drive a car. None of them want to ban guns.

    I'm all in favor of rights, including the 2nd Amendment, even if it's not a right I would ever use myself. But to say that the conservatives don't propagandize this issue is laughable.

  • wasasister
    wasasister

    I must agree with Seeker. Even when I was strongly against owning a gun myself, I never considered taking guns away from anyone else. I don't think I could ever hunt for sport or for food - I'd rather eat veggies - but I wouldn't want to ban hunting.

    There truly ARE moderates on this issue. I do not understand how restricting some people's right to purchase a firearm differs from restricting drunks from driving.

    Francoise: while I respect your opinion, I still don't buy the "camel's nose" idea. Americans are NOT Cubans and never will be. We have shown a historic stubbornness when someone tries to take away our rights. No president, no so-call left-wing media, can accomplish this. We just won't stand for it. Bill and Hillary Clinton were President for 8 years. Are we now living in a Socialist State? Do you still have your guns? Ain't gonna happen.
    And did you address my suggestion about child-proof locks? How is that different from prescription drug containers?

    Tina: My god, I had no idea about your husband. However, I'm not sure that tragic event argues FOR or AGAINST gun availability. I'm so sorry, sweetie.

    Everyone: I do agree with Francoise about the tone of this discussion. Thank you all for stating your positions clearly and without shouting or abusive name-calling. Maybe it is possible to discuss abortion, homosexuality, anal/oral sex, atheism, and Venice's boobs and still maintain our decorum.

  • rollercoaster
    rollercoaster

    Wasa,
    Lets make this a team effort. I have a gun. I want to purchase a new gun. I also want to take a training course, and go to the shooting range to practice on a regular basis. Since we live so close, maybe this is something we can do together. As you handle a gun more, and find your comfort level, you can make a better decision regarding the right choice for you. To carry or not to carry.
    I was raised handling guns. But for 20 years I never touched a gun. Now it will be like learning all over again.
    Lets take a Saturday, go to some gun shops, ask questions, become informed and then take the next step.
    RC

  • philo
    philo

    Englishman, somebody once told me that there is a shotgun of 2-bore calibre for shooting flocks of birds. Were just they pulling my leg? Surely you'd need two men, or a tripod stand with a recoil mechanism, to handle it! 12-bore seems to be the standard size, but I've seen 16 and 20-bore rat guns.

    I had a .22 air rifle on our farm, but I killed more with my bow and arrow, in other words, I hardly killed anything!

    philo

  • COMF
    COMF

    Growing up in rural Texas, I should have been hunting deer from the time I could carry a gun. But, my dad wasn't around to do any kid-raising, and my mom's father, the male authority figure in my life, was not a hunter, although he was a rifle-carrying soldier in WW1. A couple of times when I was a teenager, I was invited to go hunting with friends. This turned out to be an excursion with a 22 rifle through some country acreage they owned, basically shooting anything that moved. I shot a red-headed woodpecker... he stayed there on the tree for a moment, then fell straight cold dead to the ground, not even flapping a wing. I shot an armadillo, who started leaping in the air and doing flips, landing on his back or side. I was mortified to realize what pain I had put him in, and tried to get closer so I could finish him off, but he ran off into the woods. And that was about it for my momentous hunting trip.

    As an adult, for a while I kept chickens for eggs, and for the fun of it. I discovered that a possum was visiting the henhouse at night, eating eggs and killing chickens, so I bought a gun, a 22 pistol. I went out after dark once and found a possum on a limb of a tree overhanging the henhouse. I shot him twice, killing him. Then I looked around at the apartments nearby and wondered if anybody would call the cops because of the gunshots. They didn't.

    Another time, I went out to the henhouse and shone my flashlight inside, to find a possum poised right beside one of the hens up on the roost, which was about shoulder height. I shot this guy twice, too, and killed him. After shooting, I looked at the wall of the henhouse and wondered if the bullets had gone through the possum and through the wall, and if so, what did they hit on the other side of the wall? I had no idea whether or not anybody happened to be walking along the stretch of land behind the henhouse.

    After I dispatched the two possums, I didn't need the gun any more, but I didn't get rid of it. I disassembled it. I took out the cylinder, which was held in place by a screw-in pin. I put the cylinder in a secret place in my bedroom, the pin in another in my desk drawer in the living room, and the gun up in the top of my closet. I locked the bullets in a drawer out in my workshop. One day just outside my workshop I found a spent 22 shell. I checked the bullets in the locked drawer; sure enough, one was missing. I confronted my sons with the empty shell and demanded to know what was going on. They admitted to having dug around through the house until they found all the parts, assembled the gun, got a key to the drawer, put a bullet in it, and fired it into the ground "just to see what would happen."

    The next day, I took the gun to the police station and gave it to them, asking for a written receipt which identified the gun and stated that I had turned it over to them. I don't remember why I chose to do this rather than sell it to a pawn shop; I just remember that it seemed like the best thing to do at the time. No doubt it served some officer well as a throw-down in a shooting somewhere.

    I haven't owned a gun since, and don't particularly care to.

    About injuring or killing other humans:

    I would prefer not to. If there's a way out of it, I'll try to find it. But there are conditions where it would be necessary, in my mind.

    For example: if my child were being attacked with the obvious intent to kill him. If my daughter were being attacked with obvious intent to rape her. In such circumstances the chance that talk will accomplish anything is slim. Assuming that I had the means to shoot such a person, I would give him one verbal warning. If he understood me yet didn't immediately back off, I would shoot him. If he died, his death would not cause me any guilt. I'm sure I would have emotional trauma from the incident, but not due to guilt over it.

    As an agnostic, I understand that reality is not determined and held in check by the tidy set of rights and rules of behavior that we've created for ourselves. We have no God-granted or Universe-ordained "right" to be here, to be living, to keep living. My child can die, and the universe will not so much as bat an eye. My wife can be raped and strangled afterward, and God will not lift a finger to stop it. My own life can be threatened, and neither God nor angels nor universal destiny will intervene to save me.

    And so it comes down to this: of this world, of life, of continuing existence, I will have exactly as much as I take for myself. If a man threatens my life, the choice is: stand by idly and let him kill me; or keep my life by fighting him. Life, to me, is enjoyable enough to fight for. I may not have any particular right to it; it may not be God-given or universe-sanctioned; but it exists--I have it right now, whether rightfully or not--and I'm going to keep it. I'm going to fight for it. The guy who wants to take it from me will attempt to do so at the risk of his own.

    I would kill to protect my children. My own life is worth as much as my children's; I am not less than them. I would kill to protect my own life. And I would not feel guilty afterward, either. The attacker will have known the risk he was running when he made the choice to attempt killing me. And if he didn't know the risk... oh, well... somehow, I just can't get upset over it.

    COMF

  • wasasister
    wasasister

    Thanks for your intelligent response, COMF. Knew I could count on you.

    At the risk of being accused of stroking my own thread, I have one other comment to add, ie:

    Francoise and other conservatives....if the government or anyone else does come to confiscate your guns, do you know who will stop them? You fellow NRA members? No, they're too busy fighting with each other. Rather, look to folks like COMF, Seeker, and myself - the moderates you so quickly dismiss as "liberals". We may not be vocal, but don't mistake our quiet nature as lack of intelligence or passion. We are the part of society who keep extremists of either side from grasping too much power. We are not out shouting our message for the simple reason that we are busy making a living; contributing to the economy; keeping the wheels of the free enterprise system greased.

    Perhaps if we were starving or threatened, we might be as vulnerable or gullible as the Cubans or Czechs. But we're not. We'll protect fiercely our life-style: our SUV's, our kids' private schools, our over-priced Chardonnays, our 4 dollar cups of coffee, our chemically enhanced green front lawns, our Jane Fonda exercise videos.

    If it ever comes to the situation where you need someone to protect your second amendment rights, be glad we're here.

    Americans will give up certain freedoms only when their lives are at stake. We gladly stand in line while going through airport security for the very understandable reason of not wanting to explode in mid-air. In the same line of thought, most would be willing to forego a certain amount of freedom to prohibit drunks from driving or angry ex-spouses from buying guns.

    Francoise, Tina, Seeker, COMF, Rollercoaster, and everyone else....thank you for helping me reach a decision. It reminded me of why I came here in the first place.

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