Leolaia, I think you're right on!
Did Paul admit his writings are not infallible?
by logansrun 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
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A Paduan
Interesting, but what about that scripture where he says not even to "say a greeting" to these ones??; Wouldn't that indicate total shunning?
Do you mean ones who are greedy and claim to be christians ? The jws apply it to those who consider that they indeed feel not like a 'brother'.
Did Christ say greetings to certain pharisees, or simply give them a serving of truth ?
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Leolaia
The statement about "not even saying a greeting" to such a person is from 2 John, which represents a much later time than that of Paul (i.e. c. 90-110 or so) and represents the view of (the probably second-generation) John the Presbyter concerning the doctrinal schisms occurring at the time in Asia Minor. These chiefly concerned disputes over "Judaizing" and docetic/gnostic beliefs as Revelation (cf. 2:2, 6, 9, 14-15, 20-24, 3:9) and Ignatius (Magnesians 8:1-2, 9:1, 10:3, Philadelphians 6:1-2, Smrynaeans 1:1-3:3, 5:1-3, 6:2) attest. 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 7 themselves depict the adversaries as "antichrists" who deny that Jesus is the "Christ-come-in-the-flesh". This could be interpreted in either a docetic or Judaizing sense (e.g. denying that Jesus came in the "flesh" or that Jesus is the Christ), tho the doctic understanding is the most popular. What 2 John is really talking about are itinerant preachers (like those assumed by the Gospel of Thomas, which has itinerancy and proto-gnostic or proto-docetic beliefs as an ideal) who wander from church to church, seeking shelter and a place where they can give their prophecies and teahcings. The late-first century Didache also has recommendations on itinerant preachers and discusses how to distinguish the "false prophets" and "false teachers" among them. The criteria used in 2 John is focused on their teaching, the criteria used in the Didache is focused on how they conduct themselves. The proper response according to John the Presbyter is to "not receive him in your house" (mé lambanete auton eis oikian), or even to "greet" (khairein) him (2 John 10). This has nothing to do with those who sin or commit adultery or what not, it is only focused on people who "come to you" (erkhetai pros humas), e.g. visiting teachers and itinerants, bringing what the presbyter esteemed to be false teaching exceeding the "teaching of Christ (didakhé tou Khristou)" (v. 6-7).
Now what is ironic is that John the Presbyter got a taste of his own medicine. The church led by Diotrephes (unfortunately we don't know which Asian church this was) entered into some sort of dispute with John, possibly over doctrinal matters, such that Diotrephes "circulated wicked statements about us" (logois ponérois phluaron hémas) from John's point of view (3 John 10). With the shoe on the other foot, John complained that Diotrephes "refused to welcome our brothers and prevents the other people who would have liked to from doing it, and expels them from the church" (v. 10). Apparently, John wrote a letter to deliver to this church and sent emissaries, but Diotrephes "refuses to receive us (ouk epidekhetai hémas)" (v. 9). In contrast, he praises Gaius for "looking after these brothers although they were complete strangers (xenous) to you" (v. 5), as "it is our duty to welcome (hupolambanein) men of this sort" (v. 8) who "set out for the sake of the Name" and "do not depend on the pagans" for support (v. 7). In contrast to the itinerants condemned in 2 John, the author says that his own brothers are to be received with full hospitality and Gaius is to "help them on their journey (poiéseis propempsas)" (v. 6) as he sees fit and "greet (aspazou) each of our friends by name" (v. 15).
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NeonMadman
Interesting, but what about that scripture where he says not even to "say a greeting" to these ones?? Wouldn't that indicate total shunning?
That was John, not Paul. The historical context of 2 John is a time in which itinerant preachers would travel around teaching from scripture and would receive support from the churches they taught in. Often they would be put up in homes of the believers. Also, it was common in those days for the churches themselves to meet in private homes. At the time John wrote, the Gnostic heresy was plaguing many of the churches, and some of the teachers who were coming to the churches had subscribed to the Gnostic or Docetic heresies, both of which taught that Jesus had not "come in the flesh". John was telling believers not to accept these teachers into their house churches for the purpose of either supporting them or learning from them. The Greek term for "say a greeting" (which is the NWT rendering) actually implies more than a simple hello; it carries the thought of well wishing or positive support. Strong's Concordance defines it as follows:chairo¯
khah'ee-ro A primary verb; to be full of "cheer", that is, calmly happy or well off; impersonal especially as a salutation (on meeting or parting), be well: - farewell, be glad, God speed, greeting, hail, joy (-fully), rejoice.Barnes' Notes on the New Testament offers the following comments:
Neither bid him God speed - Kai chairein auto¯ me¯ legete - "and do not say to him, hail, or joy." Do not wish him joy; do not hail, or salute him. The word used expresses the common form of salutation, as when we wish one health, success, prosperity, Mat_26:49; Act_15:23; Act_23:26 ;Jam_1:1. It would be understood as expressing a wish for success in the enterprise in which they were embarked; and, though we should love all people, and desire their welfare, and sincerely seek their happiness, yet we can properly wish no one success in career of sin and error.
The NWT rendering of 2 John 10 is misleading, and was obviously translated that way to support their shunning doctrine. Note some other versions:
Amplified Bible: If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine [ is disloyal to what Jesus Christ taught ], do not receive him [ do not accept him, do not welcome or admit him ] into [ your ] house or bid him Godspeed or give him any encouragement.
An Understandable Version of the NT: If anyone comes to you [i.e.,
to your meetings] who does not bring this teaching [about Christ] , you should not welcome him into your home or give him [any] greetings [ i.e., suggesting approval or endorsement] .I'll grant that these two versions are actually offering commentary on the verse, but their notations are based on the understanding of the original language and are intended to clarify the meaning. Even the King James Version departs from the NWT:
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:"God speed" is a very different greeting from "hello". It implies wishing God's blessing and assistance, and is not something a Chistian would want to offer to a false teacher.
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NeonMadman
Sorry about the formatting on that post above. I tried repeatedly but just couldn't get it to line up. Hope it still makes sense.
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M.J.
Wow. This is the most enlightening info I've seen related to the WTS practice of shunning. It is such an eye opener to see the historical context of these verses.
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zagor
Not long ago there was a program on History channel about bible and Christianity. One of the scholars made an interesting observation. He said that “it is obvious that all of Paul's letters were in effect private letters; he never thought these would be included in biblical canon. If Paul had known that his letters would become later a part of holly scriptures he would’ve been much more prudent in the way how he expressed himself.”
Really, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out. Take any Paul’s letter and you'll see a depth of personal touch, thoughts being expressed in first person, talking about his opinions, writing about his personal experiences, giving advice on "drinking wine", etc. All of which stands out like a sore thumb when compared with rest of the bible. -
Leolaia
Well, in his apologia in 2 Corinthians, Paul gets very emotional and blurts out some things of a deeply personal nature (particularly about his disability) that he partly regrets, saying: "I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it" (12:11). The emotional hysterics in the final chapters of the compiled epistle (probably the "sorrowful letter" mentioned in 2:4) may have been a reason why 2 Corinthians was not circulated in the original corpus Paulinum; Clement of Rome, at least, evidences no knowledge of it in his own epistle to Corinth, tho he makes extensive use of 1 Corinthians.
I wonder, if Paul were alive today, he would be embarassed that his little boasting tirade is now considered to be "God's Word".
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tetrapod.sapien
I wonder, if Paul were alive today, he would be embarassed that his little boasting tirade is now considered to be "God's Word".
nice post Leolaia,
i think he would be embarassed, and slightly insensed at history (post history in his case). not sure how long this would last until he found himself posting here on JWD.
Did Paul admit his writings are not infallible?
no. but he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. -
greendawn
What he was saying there was that the idea of not getting married was not divine law but it would work out much more worthwhile if people remained celibate and so he warmly recommended this.