How do they explain 607?

by gringojj 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    *** si pp. 282-283 Study Number 2—Time and the Holy Scriptures ***

    27

    Pivotal Dates. Reliable Bible chronology is based on certain pivotal dates. A pivotal date is a calendar date in history that has a sound basis for acceptance and that corresponds to a specific event recorded in the Bible. It can then be used as the starting point from which a series of Bible events can be located on the calendar with certainty. Once this pivotal point is fixed, calculations forward or backward from this date are made from accurate records in the Bible itself, such as the stated life spans of people or the duration of the reigns of kings. Thus, starting from a pegged point, we can use the reliable internal chronology of the Bible itself in dating many Bible events.

    28

    Pivotal Date for the Hebrew Scriptures. A prominent event recorded both in the Bible and in secular history is the overthrow of the city of Babylon by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. The Bible records this event at Daniel 5:30. Various historical sources (including Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, Ptolemy, and the Babylonian tablets) support 539 B.C.E. as the year for the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus. The Nabonidus Chronicle gives the month and day of the city’s fall (the year is missing). Secular chronologers have thus set the date for the fall of Babylon as October 11, 539 B.C.E., according to the Julian calendar, or October 5 by the Gregorian calendar.

    29

    Following the overthrow of Babylon, and during his first year as ruler of conquered Babylon, Cyrus issued his famous decree permitting the Jews to return to Jerusalem. In view of the Bible record, the decree was likely made late in 538 B.C.E. or toward the spring of 537 B.C.E. This would give ample opportunity for the Jews to resettle in their homeland and to come up to Jerusalem to restore the worship of Jehovah in "the seventh month," Tishri, or about October 1, 537 B.C.E.—Ezra 1:1-4; 3:1-6.

    30

    Pivotal Date for the Christian Greek Scriptures. A pivotal date for the Christian Greek Scriptures is determined by the date that Tiberius Caesar succeeded Emperor Augustus. Augustus died on August 17, 14 C.E. (Gregorian calendar); Tiberius was named emperor by the Roman Senate on September 15, 14 C.E. It is stated at Luke 3:1, 3 that John the Baptizer began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius’ reign. If the years were counted from the death of Augustus, the 15th year ran from August of 28 C.E. to August of 29 C.E. If counted from when Tiberius was named emperor by the Senate, the year ran from September of 28 C.E. to September of 29 C.E. Soon after this, Jesus, who was about six months younger than John the Baptizer, came to be baptized, when he was "about thirty years old." (Luke 3:2, 21-23; 1:34-38) This agrees with the prophecy at Daniel 9:25 that 69 "weeks" (prophetic weeks of 7 years each, thus totaling 483 years) would elapse from "the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem" and its wall until the appearance of Messiah. (Dan. 9:24, footnote) That "word" was authorized by Artaxerxes (Longimanus) in 455 B.C.E. and was put into effect by Nehemiah in Jerusalem in the latter part of that year. And 483 years later, in the latter part of 29 C.E., when he was baptized by John, Jesus was also anointed by holy spirit from God, thus becoming the Messiah, or Anointed One. That Jesus was baptized and began his ministry in the latter part of the year also agrees with the prophecy that he was to be cut off "at the half of the week" of years (or after three and a half years). (Dan. 9:27) Since he died in the spring, his ministry of three and a half years must have begun toward the fall of 29 C.E. Incidentally, these two lines of evidence also prove that Jesus was born in the autumn of 2 B.C.E., since Luke 3:23 shows that Jesus was about 30 years of age when he commenced his work.

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere
    Reliable Bible chronology is based on certain pivotal dates.

    Stillajwelder. You certainly sound like one. And you can use 539 and go backwards from Nabonidus up to Nebuchadnezzar and find that Neb. begin ruling in 605 and not 624 as the WTS claims.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Stillanxjwelder wrote: "Pivotal Date for the Hebrew Scriptures. A prominent event recorded both in the Bible and in secular history is the overthrow of the city of Babylon by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. The Bible records this event at Daniel 5:30. Various historical sources (including Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, Ptolemy, and the Babylonian tablets) support 539 B.C.E. as the year for the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus. The Nabonidus Chronicle gives the month and day of the city’s fall (the year is missing). Secular chronologers have thus set the date for the fall of Babylon as October 11, 539 B.C.E., according to the Julian calendar, or October 5 by the Gregorian calendar.

    29

    Following the overthrow of Babylon, and during his first year as ruler of conquered Babylon, Cyrus issued his famous decree permitting the Jews to return to Jerusalem. In view of the Bible record, the decree was likely made late in 538 B.C.E. or toward the spring of 537 B.C.E. This would give ample opportunity for the Jews to resettle in their homeland and to come up to Jerusalem to restore the worship of Jehovah in "the seventh month," Tishri, or about October 1, 537 B.C.E.—Ezra 1:1-4; 3:1"

    ok...well, that brings us to 607 bc again then, doesn`t it. If they had been gone for 70 years, as the bible says, that brings us to 607 bc. Well, then either the Bible or secular sources are wrong, and if you`re a JW, you`re of course going to believe the Bible. (After all, they believe the world is 6000 years old, contrary to literally tons of evidence that is is a bit older than that....) In that case, their 607-date makes sense after all...doesn`t it?

    (I`m so confused on this issue right now, that I`m about to give up..)

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    Stillanxjwelder wrote: "Pivotal Date for the Hebrew Scriptures.

    No I did not - at the top of the post you will see the reference - I have just cut and pasted from the All Scriptures inspired book to show you what the WTBTS says. Look at all the links on this thread and you will see that by a long long way the vast majority of evidence points to 587/586 BCE as the fall of Jerusalem - there is virtually zero evidence for 607 BCE as Ray Franz points out in Crisis of Conscience when he was researching Aid to Bible Understanding - and a brilliant book is The Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl O. Johnnson.

    I am playing devils advocate on this thread by giving you the WTBTS side of the story. I do not even for 1 second believe the 607 date. Just to clarify my position unequivocally

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere
    When do the 70 years start and when do they end?

    Martorii, Read Jeremiah 25: 11. It says "these nations will have to serve the King of Babylon 70 years".2Chronicles 36:20 says the captives will serve Neb. and his sons UNTIL .the reign of the kingdom of Persia. that reign begin in 539 with Cyrus. To find out when the 70 years begin add 70 to 539= 609. Encyclopedias will tell you Jehoiakim begin to rule in 609. The Bible says he ruled almost 11 years with Jehoiachin finishing the last 3 months. The next KIng was Zedekiah who ruled 11 years .609 minis 22 is 587.That is when Jerusalem was desolated. 587 down to 539 is 48 years. 48 and 22=70 years. So the 70 years begin 609 and ended 539. When Cyrus issued the degree for the captives to go back to their homeland and they arrived in 537 if you subtract 537 from 587=50 years Jerusalem laid desolated.The WTS says Jerusalem was desolated in 607 and they carry that down to 537 and say Jerusalem laid desolated 70 years but the 70 years has nothing to do with desolation. the Bible makes that clear. It is talking about serving the King for 70 years. Just another one of their lies.Revelation 22:15 fits them perfect"who ever loves or tells lies will be destroyed".

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    I read that post Alwayshere, but I didn`t understand all of it...and to stillanxjwelder, sorry, should have read the first part of the thread.

    Ok, to clear things up, there are some things I want to have clearified. JWs claim the the destruction of Jerusalem and the 70 years of desolation began in 607. That would mean that they returned in 537. Secular sources claim that the destruction was in 587! What I want to know, is: If the were kicked out in 587, and they were gone 70 years, that would mean that they returned in 517. Right? The question is, were they really gone in 70 years? Because, if SECULAR sources says they returned in 537 (but still claim that they were kicked out in 587), I can understand why JWs cling to the 607 date, because no matter what secular sources say, the Bible is still (to them) the source that is considered reliable. Now, it`s of course problematic either way, that they have to depend on secular sources. But what I want to know is, what does science/historians say about the dates I metnioned in this post. Do they know ANYTHING (based on archaelogoy, babylonian texts or whatever) about WHAT YEAR the jews returned? Please, is anyone knows, answer just that question.

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere
    if they were kicked out in 587,and they were gone 70 years, that would mean they returned in 517. right?

    Hellrider, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia's greatest domination. They had world power for 70 years. Different nations came under that domination at different times.The Bible does not say they were gone 70 years. The Bible says at Jeremiah 25:11 is saying "they will have to SERVE the King of Babylon for 70 years". Now read verse 12 it says "when the 70 years are completed, God will turn his attention to the King of Babylon AND that NATION".God turned his attention to Babylon in 539 when he had cyrus to conquer it.AT Isaiah 23:15 it says "Tyre must be forgotten 70 years, the same as one King" [the Babylonian Empire] Tyre was among the nations that was singled out to drink the wine of his rage..read Jeremiah 25: 17-22. The only place you will ever read they were gone for 70 years is in the WT publications.Again the 70 years has NOTHING to do with the desolation of Jerusalem. When Babylon fell in 539 that was the end of their 70 years of world power. 609-539=70 years. That organization is a cult and is run by Apostates.

  • martorii
    martorii

    Doesn't the text below indicate that Jerusalem was going to be desolate for seventy years?

    *** Rbi8 Daniel 9:2 ***

    in the first year of his reigning I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years.

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    they did return in 537 but Jerusalem was NOT laid desolate in 607. Go to history and encyclopedias for the desolation of Jerusalem. Have told you that 70 years has NOTHING to do with the desolation but THAT is how long Babylon had World power and different nations came under the controll of Babylon at different times during Babylon's 70 years of World Power. Go to any Encyclopedia on the internet and type "Babylonian Captivity". Maybe they can make you understand. There is no need for me to say anything else.

  • martorii
    martorii


    I didn't ask whether or not Jerusalem was desolate for 70 years. But I was asking how you reconcile the Scripture in Daniel.

    I agree with the Encyclopedia that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587, but don't know how to explain Dan 9:2.

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