Why are honest questions considered apostasy?

by Rayvin 52 Replies latest jw experiences

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  out of the box

  WELCOME, I am new here too!

  This could have been ME writing this! I was always told 'you have a big mouth'!!! And this was in front of the others at the Tuesday night meeting!!! I ALWAYS questioned things that were said when not in a meeting setting and that made them all nervous. I could not understand how they could make a speech about something and do the opposite after the meeting!!! Some of them gave Birthday gifts the next day or the day before to their kids so that no one would know!

  This story is of the worst time for me to be told to be quiet:

  We were all invited to the house where we had the Tuesday night meeting. All the people who usually went there were invited by the Elder (who was a top elder we all respected) who didn't usually run that meeting, but was going to be there that night. This was on a Monday night. We all showed up and were told it was an 'informal gathering'. Somehow he got us all in the livingroom seated like we were going to have the meeting! He said an 'opening prayer', and we all just sat there.

  He started talking... and I realized he was starting to talk about something like AMWAY!!! I got so upset (first of all we did not have that many evenings to ourselves, my kids had homework, I had things to do) We had been duped!!! You had to raise your hand to make a comment!!! I raised my hand to say, 'excuse me, is this a meeting about Amway? He smiled and said 'yes'. I said 'I am going to leave, I am not interested'. And he got MAD and told me I had a big mouth and was too forward as a sister!!! I was furious!!! He said it was for fellowship and that I was not being fair to the others to leave and discourage them!!! I could barely stop from screaming as I sat there in shock! I slowly got up went into the other room, sat there for a while, a few came in to see how I was doing (I was so emotional you know). I smiled and said 'I'm OK." Then, when things quieted down, I quietly went for the front door!!!

  I didn't need to be knocked in the head too many times to realize this was not a good situation! Also, this perfect elder that everyone loved, as it turned out, years later when I 'popped' in for a meeting at the KH to see who was left there, I found out those dark eyes his wife had were not from allergies as she always told us, it was from him slapping her around!!! He was a big builder in the town, very influential and an elder, so she didn't have a chance as far as letting anyone know what he was doing to her!!!

  Questions make everyone else 'question'. I thought about this for a few minutes and this is my take on the JWs.

  Words are their expression more than works. Words are more important to them than works or deeds. Remember, they TALK about deeds they do not demonstrate them. I know there are exceptions, I worked hard and knew some that did the same. But for the most part, WORDS are the KEY to their religious faith. The correct wording, and that is why on Thursday nights we would all give the 'school skits'. We would practice on HOW to say the right words. We read the words, the Watchtower and Awake gives the latest words. The books give you the words to follow for recruitment. And, the meetings feed you the words that you will not hear anywhere else and must come to for the latest fix. All words. The hugs are fake, the smiles are put on, and the words are rehearsed.

  Now do you see why they get upset when you 'get off the script'? When you ask a question you are breaking the bond, breaking the script. It is like not rehearsing for the play before going on stage. You fall out of your 'role' that you have been put into! You must not recite the words of the stars, you are mearly an extra!!!

  I didn't mean to insult anyone here who feels they are following their hearts in faith. I am merely stating MY opinion on this matter. I can see now that I am out of it that it is a cult. It is one that has strong grips on thier sheep. If it the 'truth' than there should BE NO QUESTION that could disprove it, so why be afraid of questions? When you KNOW you HAVE the TRUTH, LET THE QUESTIONS come!!! It would be so much fun to answer the questions and then spit out all that truth!!! That was MY question that no one could answer.

  out of the box.
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  jgnat

  Excellent rant there, box! Glad you made it out-of-the-box.
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  greendawn

  The fact that you are not allowed to ask questions means that you are in a cultish environment where you have to forego the basic human right to freedom of speech.
  
  Contrary to what they claim, in the early Christian church there was total freedom of speech no one ever got thrown out for using this right, there was no theocracy, as understood by the WTS, which is a form of dictatorship. That's not the wisdom from above.
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  codeblue

  Welcome Rayvin

  I too was raised as a JW.

  My husband asked the Co on a visit to our house (we are fading and don't go to meetings) about the UN. The Co was aware of the UN invovlement, agreed he heard they were and would make NO comment on it.

  IF they make a comment it is much like taking a political position, and for elders and Co's.....they know they must support only the WTBS or they loose their POSITION. They must keep the "flock" united, even if it means a "coverup"...

  Looking forward to more of your posts...

  Codeblue
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  Netty

  I know exactly what you are feeling, and so do many others here. You are at the best place to vent about it all, and get some great feedback and discussion. Welcome to the board.
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  seattleniceguy

  gespro,

  SNG said: The fact of the matter is that asking questions can never be dishonest.

  gespro said: The jury over here is still out on this one...could you explain? [I'm not trying to be a wiseguy but I'm not understanding this statement...]

  I was hoping someone would call me on this so I would get to explain myself in better detail. A question is a request for information. As a request, it is not possible for it to be dishonest, because you are asking for information, not conveying it. Sometimes people phrase questions so as to include statements of opinion or fact, and sometimes the question itself makes implicit assumptions, but the request for information can never be anything more than that - a simple request.

  For example, take the slyly worded question, "When did you stop smoking cigarettes?" Some may feel that this is a dishonest question, since it includes the implicit assumption that smoking occurred. But it is possible to answer honestly and straightforwardly by simply saying, "Your question makes a faulty assumption. I never smoked cigarettes to begin with, so it was not necessary to stop."

  Or, you could consider this question really as three questions:
  1. Did you smoke cigarettes?
  2. If yes, did you stop?
  3. If yes, when did you stop?

  Each of these is a simple request for information that can be answered straightforwardly. None of them has any "deceit" or "dishonesty" in them, because a true question cannot contain such. A person who is willing to share his or her tobacco history with you should have no problem answering these questions, and it would be ludicrous to impugn the motives of the person asking these questions. But notice that it is in the answer, not the question, that the opportunity for dishonesty comes, since the answer is the part where the new information is conveyed.

  Let's consider a line of questioning JWs would likely brand "dishonest."

  1. Why did Society become an NGO of the United Nations?
  2. Why did they withdraw their membership just days after their membership was exposed in The Guardian in October 2001?
  3. Why did they never explain the facts to rank-and-file Witnesses, who are understandably shocked to learn of this association?
  4. Given that a person could be disfellowshipped for being a member of the YMCA, how does the Society explain their decade-long association with the UN?

  I think I pushed this line far enough that most JWs would be offended and refuse to answer, labeling the questions as "apostate" or "dishonest," etc, etc. But look at the questions closely. Where has the dishonestly occurred?

  The real reason that these questions are considered "dishonest" is that the answers are distasteful to the Society. Instead of honestly answering them, or even admitting that they simply don't want to answer them, they turn the guilt around on the questioner - itself a dishonest tactic.

  So to return to your question and review in brief: a question is a request for information. Sometimes it is accompanied by a statement or implication (as in my first UN question above), but the question itself is not and cannot be dishonest because it does not convey information.

  SNG
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  seattleniceguy

  Also, just wanted to add my welcome to Rayvin and out-of-the-box!

  SNG
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  sf

  http://www.spiritwatch.org/jwcult.htm

  A portion therein:

  Cult mind control is designed to deceive an individual into voluntarily relinquishing the control over the only tool they have to make an objective judgment, that being a free mind. So therefore, how could those Witnesses whose reason and perception that has been controlled by the Watchtower organization be expected to give an objective answer to their rhetorical question on "victims"? Such questioning is like asking a hostage by telephone, with a gun to the back of his head, to condemn his captors. It is not likely to happen.

  Why do those who have attempted to raise the question who were former Jehovah's Witnesses treated like reprobate dissidents who are labeled "apostates" - and hence off limits to all active Witnesses? Why does the Watchtower so firmly declare dialogue with former members as an off-limits activity that can be punishable with disfellowshipping? The Society's attempt at candor here fails miserably. The hard truth is that the real victims of abusive Watchtower control are instead dismissed as bitter losers who could not measure up to "God's requirements" and who are branded as enemies of the Watchtower state.

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  sKally
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  JT

  sword of jah says:

  "start speculating"

  i agree on one should speculate, the problem is the wt speculates all the time and yet you have no problem with them doing it

  two sets of scales man
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  Room 215

  One quote, attributed to Cervantes, says it all: ``I can deal with questions I can't answer, but not with questions I can't ask (or, answers I can't question)"