Perfection - Without Defect

by Farkel 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Farkel

By definition, perfect means "without defect." The WTS teaches us that Adam was perfect and Jesus was perfect. I've already pointed out many times that there is NOWHERE to be found any scripture that states either Adam OR Jesus was "perfect." None.
The Bible does say that God said his creation was "good." Good ain't perfect. It is just good. God said his animals were "good." Animals kill and eat each other and animals die. Perfect creatures are without defect. Dying shows a defect. It shows that something breaks, causing a creature to die.
Assuming Adam was perfect, i.e. without defect then it is logical to assume that he (and his offspring) would continue on without any defects whatsoever. They would never make any mistakes, or do anything wrong. If they did, then that would show a defect. But something perfect has no defects. Yet, God "tested" his "perfect" Adam and his "perfect" Eve. The only reason anyone would test anything is to see if there are any defects. But perfect things don't have defects. Do you see where I am going?
People faced with this logical dilemma invariably come up with the "free will" argument, but it doesn't stand. If it did, then it would prove beyond any doubt that if someone screwed up, they weren't perfect. Screwing up is a defect. Plain and simple.
This brings us to the WTS view that in the paradise Earth, 144,000 of the biggest screwups who ever existed will rule over 6,000,000 +/- of the other biggest screwups who ever existed for all of eternity. ALL of these screwups will be perfect, yet for some really strange reason they still need to be ruled! Why do people need to be ruled? Because people screw up, that's why. But perfect people cannot screw up. Otherwise, they wouldn't be perfect.
It seems to me that this 2 class doctrine of the WTS does nothing more than give the old timers in WatchtowerLand a feel good sense of power in their otherwise worthless lives. They get to RULE millions of others. And the "others" who are used to being ruled by their religious leaders are reminded that for all of eternity, they will be watched and judged and any screw ups will not be tolerated.
Given this evidence, the argument for human perfection in Eden and human perfection in the Earthly Paradise(tm) falls into the toilet where it belongs.
Farkel
HoChiMin

The WT circular reasoning pointed out very well.
frankiespeakin

Beautifully stated Farkel.
What utter nonsense those guys on the GB are shoveling to thier flock.
ezekiel3

Dying shows a defect.

You may being be framing your argument with WTS "thinking", but I would take issue with the statement above.
"Dying" is occuring at every level of the physical world at all times. Humans die, and we as humans don't like that because we are afraid of losing what we "are" as individuals.
But even besides animals, insects and plant life die constantly in a perfect circle of ecology. On another level "non-living" entities like rocks, mountains and continents die and become amassed into other forms. Even stars and planets die.
If you can't handle that fact that death is part of life, join a cult. Otherwise embrace the pattern of life around you and rejoice in this moment because you can.
If humans could get past their egos they might realize they involved in a life-cycle -- of which death is a perfect part.
the_classicist

By definition, perfect means "without defect." The WTS teaches us that Adam was perfect and Jesus was perfect. I've already pointed out many times that there is NOWHERE to be found any scripture that states either Adam OR Jesus was "perfect." None.
Taken within the Christological context, perfect does mean "without defect," but without the defect of sin, which scripture does say Adam and Jesus were without.
Terry

To be reasonable about this subject we have to look at the words we are using and conveying meaning by choosing.
Every single thing that exists has its own nature and its nature is what it is. A soap bubble does only soap bubble things and not pickle things.
What Adam would do or not do would depend ENTIRELY upon his nature. He would be completely unable to step beyond his nature.
Would I ever point a gun at a child and pull the trigger? Not only would I NEVER do it or consider doing it; I could not be forced to do it by threatening me. It is not in my nature.
But, Adam, in effect pointed a gun at all his children and grandchildren and pulled the trigger just to taste a fruit. Right? Oh come on!! Utter nonsense.
The story as written is so filled with flaws it doesn't stand up to any examination at all.
What would Adam have to know to be held accountable for his (mis)deed?
Adam would have to know what he was doing and the consequence. Otherwise, his "sin" was an error and not a moral failing.
Adam would have to be capable of choosing to die (eventually) and murder (in effect) everybody who would ever live who came after him. If he actually WAS CAPABLE of doing that it was in his nature to do so.
The Watchtower Society reframes this dishonestly and persuades us it was merely a matter of selfish choice and not Adam's nature at all. Why? Because they want to make him "perfect" and "sinless" until the deed. Yet, they have hidden the real presupposition and piggy-backed their hidden concept by smuggling it into the false reasoning pattern.
If Adam's nature was perfect it would be reflected by his actions and his thoughts. But, his very first actions and thoughts (tested) demonstrate non-perfection in every way possible.
What gives? The answer is simple. The story is rigged.
Consider this very very important factor which never gets discussed.
Why would God create living creatures inferior in any way and call that a just and loving creative act? Creatures who LACK something important must try to obtain what they lack. Once any living creature becomes aware of the lack it is a matter of urgency to address the deficiency.
Adam lacked so many things!
He lacked any responsible sensibility about what it means to be a human capable of dying. He lacked the knowledge of good and evil. He lacked the fundamental logic necessary to reason his way around the very deed that would destroy him and his heirs.
Why didn't Adam ask more questions and obtain more information? Mostly because he is a fiction and not a person. But, for the sake of this silly game, we'll accept on face value that he was an actual historical personage. Wouldn't you or I (so far removed from purported perfection) get as much information as possible about this talking serpent's credentials and not just take his word for it? (Considering the possibility that the serpent could lie is very basic, wouldn't you agree?) The cost of listening to such a serpent story and suffering the consequence is too great for any human to not ask more questions.
No, Adam is what Adam is and his nature determines his actions.
Adam is a ficitional character invented by ancient people trying to understand how things could be so much less than pefect. They reasoned backwards into a Golden Age when humans WERE perfect and lived in idyllic paradise. The needed a reason and they invented one.
Adam is the least believable character in all of human history. Otherwise he would have had sex within the first 30 minutes of Eve's appearance!!
Bah, humbug.
Terry
Honesty

Listen to the man. He has the WTBTS backed into the corner they've been painting for themselves.
Ms. Whip

wow farkel,

i'll give you this one.

not many things these days make me go "ding" (not a sexual reference)

when i first read your post, i brushed it off in my old jw way...thinking, oh the watchtower didn't really mean adam and eve were perfect, perfect. but, then i looked.

in the The Watchtower November 15, 2001 in the article "Jesus Saves—How?" it clearly states "The very first man and his wife, Eve, were perfect." http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2001/11/15/article_02.htm

ok, i knew this. but, i never really thought about it! Genesis 1:31 says "Then God saw everything that He had made, and it was very good." he didn't say "perfect" good is pleasant, beautiful...even exceptional, but not perfect. yes, it's true that they had not sinned...but, that makes them unblemished (exceptional) not perfect.
obviously these two "perfect" humans eventually produced imperfection which showed their nature. i mean, in the future if we all became "perfect" what keeps us from sinning again and starting this wicked cycle over!! if we take that further and note that jesus and god are perfect, how can we be sure that they will never sin.
being perfect means never making a mistake or a wrong decision. you are in control. have a perfect understanding. a perfect person could not lack knowledge or how could he/she make perfect decisions every time?
if we really think about it, it is not logical to believe that someone who is perfect can become imperfect.
of course, it's obvious that farkel is perfect.
Farkel

ezekiel 3,
You said:
:You may being be framing your argument with WTS "thinking", but I would take issue with the statement above.
:"Dying" is occuring at every level of the physical world at all times. Humans die, and we as humans don't like that because we are afraid of losing what we "are" as individuals.
:But even besides animals, insects and plant life die constantly in a perfect circle of ecology. On another level "non-living" entities like rocks, mountains and continents die and become amassed into other forms. Even stars and planets die.
I don't know if you are a "true believer" or not, but you've just done what "true believers" (like dubs) are famous for doing: you've set up a strawman. You've not addressed my argument, but created one that sounds like it and then proceed to demolish an argument that I didn't even make. The fact that "we as humans" don't like dying is irrelevant to my own argument. You said that animals and plants dying creates a "perfect circle of ecology." That may be true, but it has nothing to do with my statement that things that cause creatures to die are defects and perfection has no defects.
Squirrels are designed to be jumpy and quick so as to evade their predators. If two otherwise equal squirrels were chased by two otherwise equal cats and only one escaped capture and death, would the two squirrels be equally perfect? If one squirrel was very old and not-so-quick and was easily captured and killed, would he be as perfect as the young, quick squirrel. If so, how so? If not, then you've set a definition of "perfect" in which some squirrels are more "perfect" than others, while both of them are still perfect? How can that be?
My statement was simple: perfect creatures don't have defects. Is a squirrel born with mutations and only 3 legs perfect, then? To argue that the ecological system works in a magically balanced way is one thing, and I agree with that. But that is irrelevant to my topic.
:If you can't handle that fact that death is part of life, join a cult.
That's another logical fallacy: the ad hominem. Attack the messenger, not the message.
: Otherwise embrace the pattern of life around you and rejoice in this moment because you can.
I already do that, thank you.
If humans could get past their egos they might realize they involved in a life-cycle -- of which death is a perfect part.
Most people realize this. Unfortunately, dubs don't.
Farkel
ezekiel3

Sweet...a debate with Farkel
Before I address your response, let me say that I believe that we actually agree on the more gross points of your topic. In fact, I understand how your argument devastates JW doctrine (essentially because of JW's concept of human perfection).
My fault with your reasoning is that you yourself set up a straw man with your original argument, that is:
Perfect creatures are without defect. Dying shows a defect. It shows that something breaks, causing a creature to die.
True that perfection is defined as being without defect. But nowhere can I find "defect" or "imperfect" equated with death.
Now if that definition is the WTS understanding of humans, then fine. But by no means is this a universal fact. Indeed, even a JW could point to their doctrine and show that God created animals "perfect" and yet they die.
My comments about 'joining cults' and 'enjoying life' were not meant to be personal. Indeed, the resurrection and promise of eternal life is the magnet that joins and keeps poor souls in the machine of the WTS.
Finally, I am not a "true believer" and have no plans for myself after I die. Until then, I hope you accept this reconciliation.

Perfection - Without Defect

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