koine greek

battman

I am looking for an online reference dictionary that
would assist in translating koine Greek words into
English.

In studying both the Kingdom Interlinear and Emphatic
Diaglott Interlinear I noticed a conflict when rendering
the koine for "house". In most all instances (38 times)
when describing a "house of worship" the Greek word is
"oikou", oikov" or "oikouc".

In all other instances (118+/-) when describing a person's
house or in just talking about "a" house the Greek words
are "oikia" or "oikiav" and two or three times "oikaw".

Is there a real difference between these words? The WT
states in their foreward that they went to great lenghts
to NOT use the same English word to describe two different
Greek ones.

The "bottomline" is that if there is a difference then at Acts20:20
Paul is refering to teaching them in their "public" places (temples)
and their own "oikouc" (houses of worship). The WT "door to door"
rendering (copied from King James) but not found in E.D. Interlinear,
woud seem to be incorrect. Esp so when compared to Luke 10:7
which states do NOT being going "house to house" and uses the
Greek word "oikia" twice and not the Greek "oikouc". Compare also
Acts 8:3 when discussing taking followers from the temple and
(houses of worship) the exact same word "oikouc" is used as in Acts20:20.

Further evidence is found at 1Cor16:19, Col4:15 and Philemon2 when
discussing "houses of worship" the Greek koine word "oikouc" is consistently
used and the context shows it used to mean a "house of worship".

battman

by their own words they shall be known

Eusebius Hieronymus

Try this gateway, there may be such somewhere on the page.

See http://www.ntgateway.com/bible.htm

And http://www.hivolda.no/asf/kkf/biblia01.html#textual

Stephanus

In studying both the Kingdom Interlinear and Emphatic
Diaglott Interlinear I noticed a conflict when rendering
the koine for "house". In most all instances (38 times)
when describing a "house of worship" the Greek word is
"oikou", oikov" or "oikouc".
In all other instances (118+/-) when describing a person's
house or in just talking about "a" house the Greek words
are "oikia" or "oikiav" and two or three times "oikaw".
Is there a real difference between these words? The WT
states in their foreward that they went to great lenghts
to NOT use the same English word to describe two different
Greek ones.

In Attic Greek the two words ("oikia" being of the first declension and "oikos" being of the second) had slightly different nuances of meaning ("oikos" being the property as an estate left after death, while "oikia" was the place dwelt in, but in Koine they came to be virtually interchangeable. "House" is an adequate translation of both words, unless context suggests differently.

The Perseus Project ( http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/) has Liddel and Scott's Lexicon online if you want to do further word studies:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057

I found it extremely hard to figure out how to transliterate some words so that the dictionary would have an answer. Hopefully things have changed since then (I've got all the lexicons in book form now, so haven't needed to use this resource for some time).

"Oikous" is simply the accusative plural form of "oikos".

Q: How do you know a Dub loyal to "Jehovah's Organisation" is lying?
A: Their lips are moving.

mustang

NOt exactly what you asked for, but give this a try:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

The original language (Greek, whatever) comes up in one of the options.

Mustang
Hope this helps

battman

To Stephanus,
Thank for the indepth response. I have booked marked
your ref and will read them later. I slept thru high school
English and was not sure what a "declension" was so I
took out my Websters. There I was refered to "inflextion"
and from there to "syntax". All in all I seemed to be left
with the impression that the "affix" added on to the end
of the base word would if fact change it's meaning within
it's class. In other words the "iok..." would always refer
to a "house" which I follow and agree with.

However could there be different "types" of houses within
the class of houses. That is to say a simple residence "oikia..."
without any special purpose versus a holy house "oikou.. which
would still be a house but not a persons personal residence.

This said then which meaning of house would be the "intent" of
the inspired writer at Acts20:20. Further what about rendering
in English as "house to house" which is totally inconsistent with
the "house to house" found at Luke 10:7.

Looking forward to your kind imput.

battman

TD

Battman,

However could there be different "types" of houses within
the class of houses. That is to say a simple residence "oikia..."
without any special purpose versus a holy house "oikou.. which
would still be a house but not a persons personal residence.

If I have understood you correctly, I think you might be barking up the wrong tree. In Greek, the distinction between different types of houses in your example would be indicated by adjectives the same as in English, and not be the declination.

Briefly, a “declension” is a grouping of nouns according to their endings but has no effect on the translation. In other words, the manner in which a noun is declined in Greek determines its usage in a sentence, but not its basic meaning.

For example, if “house” were the subject in a sentence it would be declined in the nominitive case. (The “house” on the hill.) If “house” were the direct object in a sentence it would be declined in the accusitive case. (I see a “house.”) Note how the usage does not change the basic meaning of the word.

Similarly, if “house” were the indirect object in a sentence it would be declined in the dative case. (The men walked to the “house.”) If you wanted to show instrumentality you would use the instrumental case, which is the same in form as the dative. (The man made money with the house.) If you wanted to show location you would use the locative case, which is also the same in form as the dative. (Battman is eating in the “house.”)

If you wanted to show possession, you would use the genitive case. (They ate at Battman’s “house.”) If you wanted to show separation you would use the ablative case which is the same in form as the genitive. (The man left the “house.”)

Since Greek and especially Koine Greek, like many languages, was the result of a conglomeration of various related dialects you have several systems at work. Greek has more than just one system of noun declension and verb conjugation.

This said then which meaning of house would be the "intent" of
the inspired writer at Acts20:20. Further what about rendering
in English as "house to house" which is totally inconsistent with
the "house to house" found at Luke 10:7.

“House to house” at Acts 20:20 is an acceptable, but in my opinion, ambiguous translation of kata oikous as it can easily convey the thought of “house to consecutive house.” Although this is not by any stretch of the imagination, a rendering peculiar to the NWT alone, it lends itself to the JW image of the first century Christians starting at one end of a street and going from “house to house” until they got to the other end.

I think (and this is again, just my vulgar opinion…) that “…in your homes” NJB, NAB JB, TEV etc. is a better translation.

I hope this helps somewhat, but I think the best thing you could do if you are interested in the subject is buy or borrow an introductory book on Biblical Greek.

Tom

Stephanus

Tom

My Liddell and Scott gives "at home" or "within" as a rendering of "kat' oikon" (the singular form of kat' oikous), so your hunch is as good as any.

Battman: My apologies for the jargon! Tom's done a reasonable job on explaining things. If you want more info, the three Greek declensions are grouped according to the letter which the stem of each word (the bit that the endings are built upon) ends with - the stems of 1st declension nouns end in "a" (or eta), 2nd declension in "o" and 3rd declension in a consonant (there are some 3rd declension stems which seem to end in vowels, but these are standing in the place of consonants which faded from use in Attic and Koine Greek, so they behave like consonants rather than vowels).

If you're interested in learning some more, then Tom's suggestion of picking up a book on the subject is a good one. There are also some rudimentary online courses at www.free-ed.net:
http://www.free-ed.net/catalog/crsemain.asp?nC=6&nD=6&nO=3

If you want to go a bit more formal, you could go to a seminary or theological college and see if you could just do the Greek component of their courses - many colleges offer the chance to do individual subjects.

One "problem" with Koine teaching is that it tends to have a Trinitarian bias - it is taught mostly by mainstream Christian colleges and professors, so if that's not your brand of beer, you might look at learning Classical (mainly Attic) Greek first.

Q: How do you know a Dub loyal to "Jehovah's Organisation" is lying?
A: Their lips are moving.

TD

One "problem" with Koine teaching is that it tends to have a Trinitarian bias

You've hit that nail on the head, Stephanus. I remember getting exercises marked down by 1/2 for failing to capitalize "son."

Tom

Stephanus

Well, you tend to go with what you've always been taught. I imagine a WBTS run Bible college would tend to mark you down for capitalising "Son" (I'd be surprised if they would allow you to capitalise "Jesus", too! LOL). So Dubs don't capitalise "Son"? Considering scripture gives him a special place and calls him God's unique son, I imagine the 'Tower reasoning is like it is in many areas - to de-emphasise Jesus and emphasise the Org. (I note they capitalise all their references to the Org!)

Q: How do you know a Dub loyal to "Jehovah's Organisation" is lying?
A: Their lips are moving.

Stephanus

A good resource I just found:

http://perswww.kuleuven.ac.be/~p3481184/greekg.htm

Q: How do you know a Dub loyal to "Jehovah's Organisation" is lying?
A: Their lips are moving.

koine greek

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