by Rex 39 Replies latest watchtower bible
if He programmed so many of us to feel empathy and sympathy it must be a solid part of His nature.
But did he?
There are as many if not more people in the world feeling outrageous violence towards each other (war, partner abuse, child abuse, cruelty to old people, animal cruelty), but no-one suggests that god programmed that in (good things = programmed by god; bad things = just wicked man??)
Gotta agree with Tetra, the bible is FULL of violence. Dont know how I didnt see it until now.
May the Lord of Glory bless you with His touch.
i'm done with being abused by jesus and his followers. keep your freaking disgusting jesus wishes to yourself.
sincerely,
TS
Rex,
Hi Dave,
Thank you for the kind questions. I will try to share my thoughts...
>Who exactly is the “you” that you are referring to when you say this is something that may “help you?”
Any other human being that reads this.
>Why do you think any of us need any help?
I see the hurt and I have been there. I am like a prisoner who has been set free and I am trying to share my freedom in a personal way.
>Is it because you are having such a hard time getting your personal views accepted? Is it so important to you that you need find people on this board to agree with you for you to fully accept your own views?
I don't have to be here obviously but I come from the same stark and souless religion that abused many here. I can see the pain in the angry denuciations of me and my views.
>Why is it you feel everyone needs help to align there thinking to fit a particular narrow focus?
My Lord tells me that the road to eternal life is a cramped and narrow way. I choose to travel it because I have heard His voice and recognize my shepherd.
>Who is it you ae trying to convince (besides yourself) that any or all religious myth has any historical or archeological validity that makes a difference in anyone’s life today (again, besides yourself)?
I simply want to share the living water that I have imbibed. I care about people, so much that I don't really mind being called and thought of as a fool. I am the chief of all sinners and I am no better than any here. My Lord calls me to the ministry of reconciliation.
>There is more to a specific religion than it’s most recognized and best selling book of rules and stories.
Absolutely, God is a more than a book can contain. The Book is there for a purpose: to explain the story of a savior who died 2000 years ago that you and I might choose life.
>Every religion has a historical past that reveals more about itself than an age old hand me down book of myth. You are limiting yourself by only relying on a specific book without studying where that book, its many stories, and the religion it is trying to sell, comes from. Have you studied the where, how and when in the many ancient religions that have given religious history (including the Christian religion) the incredible similarities they all share? Is your focus only limited to the bible or have you ever been interested in finding out where the bible originally got some of its mythical and mystical stories?
Ah, the similiarities are part of the whole picture. It all goes back to Genesis and that's one of the reasons it is so fascinating. A Savior was prophecied and lo and behold, He did come! Monotheism was at the root of ancient pagan beliefs, flood stories abound in far flung cultures, from the middle east, to the native Americans, the Aboriginal people of Australia and the list goes on.
I have indeed studied the liberal, moderate and conservative views of scripture. Like anyone else I do need to see what it means to me. Some are betting their life and eternity on the limited reasoning and logic of man.
I can't make the assumption that the various naturalist theories are more believable and reliable than scripture. You see the results of mankind living apart from God. It is in the news every day, 24/7. Scientific theory is in constant change. The critisism of scripture by the self styled 'theologians' who start with the naturalist premise are not neutral or unbiased. The fact is, these ones who explain the remarkable prophecies away are the ones in delusion.
>In the past few days you seem to be searching for some validation in your own beliefs. You mentioned in another thread of yours that you are teaching your students “how to think”, and not “what to think”. Your posts in the last couple of days seem to show that statement to be untrue. I’m sure you think, based on your own perception of yourself, that that is what you are doing. Your persistence in re-hashing the same line of thought shows it is specific agenda orientated. Any teacher worth their teaching credentials who really wants to teach their students “how to think” will never do that when the subject matter being taught is obviously slanted, by the teacher, to one specific point of view. You are not teaching your students (or any of us) “how to think” but in reality, “how to think like you”. Don’t you think the majority of people here on JWD have had enough of that in their lives?
I have truly given a wrong perception by my wording and that is common with this type of communication. You see what I wrote above about sharing with people what the Lord has done for me and others through a personal relationship. I am an evangelist, pure and simple. Let that be clear.
>What are you trying to accomplish here? What specific outcome are you hoping to get by making the posts you have made in the past few days?
You surely remember the blind man from the Book of John, chapter nine? Read it and see what the Word says to you. Here was a man born blind for no reason other than to reveal God to others. This happened at the point in his life when Jesus Christ would meet him. A divine appointment. The man is healed by the Lord and his eyes are opened, yet his part was to go and wash in the pool of Siloam.
His eyes, blind from birth, were regenerated (and we with our science have no idea how the brain and eyes communicate to cause sight to exist). However, the man got somehing much more important: he got spiritual sight as evidenced by his defiance of the Jews, then he worshipped Jesus!
Each one of us is born blind and when Jesus "opens the eyes of our hearts", we receive spiritual sight. We become born again as a new creation. I myself cried out to God when I finally realized the Watchtower deception and the deception of the world at large. I told God that 'I had no idea what truth was and that if He was really there, I needed to see Him revealed'! He did so and I can never look back. The arguments of the naysayers and skeptics roll off my back like 'water off a duck'.
Jesus came along at the perfect time in history. He is the one remembered today because of that sacred book. It tells of the events leading up to and after His advent. I am only one of the millions who give testimony of how they have had the experience that changes life!
Take care,
Rex
***My Lord tells me that the road to eternal life is a cramped and narrow way. I choose to travel it because I have heard His voice and recognize my shepherd.***
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Yes, I have heard that one before. Another one that was written about a thousand years before Christ supposedly walked the earth was written in the Upanishads (kind of like the Hindu bible). It puts it like this; “The road to enlightenment is narrow and as difficult to walk as. the razor's edge”.
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*** Ah, the similiarities are part of the whole picture. It all goes back to Genesis and that's one of the reasons it is so fascinating. A Savior was prophecied and lo and behold, He did come!
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The same is said about many so called “saviors” and according to which religion you want to buy into, all of them did come. The majority of them came before Genesis was written or even thought of for that matter.
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***Monotheism was at the root of ancient pagan beliefs,***
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I think you might be wrong here. Can you give some proof of that statement? From what I have read and studied, it was the Jewish and Christian faith that produced the concept of monotheism. Please “with some historical proof” show me where my thinking is wrong.
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***flood stories abound in far flung cultures, from the middle east, to the native Americans, the Aboriginal people of Australia and the list goes on.***
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I will agree with you here. Can you show me where the flood story in the bible is the one that originated such stories?
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I have indeed studied the liberal, moderate and conservative views of scripture.***
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That is a good start. But, with anything so strongly suggested as truth, one must go beyond one single version of a truth. With a little research you can find many of the things attributed to Jesus’ teachings and stories also attributed to many god heroes that came centuries before him. Can you explain why?
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*** Some are betting their life and eternity on the limited reasoning and logic of man.***
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Some are not. Man is the only creature on earth that has even pondered the concept of eternity. It must make us look a little silly to the thousand year old trees and rocks. I guess our egos can not accept the fact that a tree will out live us or does not seem to care.
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*** You see the results of mankind living apart from God.***
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No, I don’t quite see it. Will you explain it to me? According to those claiming to believe in god, god has always, and will always be with us. Is it only those who do not believe in god who are causing the problems? You might want to think a little before you answer this one.
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*** You see what I wrote above about sharing with people what the Lord has done for me and others through a personal relationship. I am an evangelist, pure and simple. Let that be clear***
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Anyone who talks a lot about his or her god is an evangelist. Just turn on CNN and you’ll see how some evangelists are claiming they are going to beat up the other guy’s evangelist. It’s been that way since the beginning of history. Evangelism is nothing more (to me) than a prelude to war and destruction with the excuse of doing it in the name of their god. So, in answer to your above question, I can not see the results of mankind living apart from god, but I can certainly see the results of mankind having to survive life trying to live with those who live with god.
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*** You surely remember the blind man from the Book of John, chapter nine? Read it and see what the Word says to you. Here was a man born blind for no reason other than to reveal God to others.***
-------------------
Again, read the Upanishads. Same story, different caricatures. If it wasn’t for the ancient so called pagan religions that came thousands of years before Christianity, Christians wouldn’t have so many cool and mystical stories to believe in.
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Here is one you might recognize; it comes from the story of Buddha. It’s about the mother who lost her son in death and asked Buddha to help her. He told her to do something that three hundred years before Jesus was supposed to have said it.
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“And Kisa Gotami had an only son, and he died. In her grief she carried the dead child to all her neighbors, asking them for medicine, and the people said: "She has lost her senses. The boy is dead. At length Kisa Gotami met a man who replied to her request: "I cannot give thee medicine for thy child, but I know a physician who can." The girl said: "Pray tell me, sir; who is it?" And the man replied: "Go to Sakyamuni, the Buddha."
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Kisa Gotami repaired to the Buddha and cried: "Lord and Master, give me the medicine that will cure my boy." The Buddha answered: "I want a handful of mustard-seed." And when the girl in her joy promised to procure it, the Buddha added: "The mustard-seed must be taken from a house where no one has lost a child, husband, parent, or friend." Poor Kisa Gotami now went from house to house, and the people pitied her and said: "Here is mustard-seed; take it!" But when she asked Did a son or daughter, a father or mother, die in your family?" They answered her: "Alas the living are few, but the dead are many. Do not remind us of our deepest grief." And there was no house but some beloved one had died in it.
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Kisa Gotami became weary and hopeless, and sat down at the wayside, watching the lights of the city, as they flickered up and were extinguished again. At last the darkness of the night reigned everywhere. And she considered the fate of men, that their lives flicker up and are extinguished. And she thought to herself: "How selfish am I in my grief! Death is common to all; yet in this valley of desolation there is a path that leads him to immortality who has surrendered all selfishness."
-----------------
Putting away the selfishness of her affection for her child, Kisa Gotami had the dead body buried in the forest. Returning to the Buddha, she took refuge in him and found comfort in the Dharma, which is a balm that will soothe all the pains of our troubled hearts.”
------------------
Sound familiar? There are many more just like it and many more god heroes way before Jesus that were said to do many of the miracles and tell many of the same parables as Jesus.
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Now, can you explain this given your vast studies of the scriptures?
You see, the bible is just one small piece of the whole religion puzzle. Remember, these stories were written about other god heroes way before Jesus. Can you show me proof that I am wrong? If I am wrong Id like to know it.
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Take care,
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Dave
rex,
I see the hurt and I have been there. I am like a prisoner who has been set free and I am trying to share my freedom in a personal way.
you're spreading ignorance, delusion, fear and guilt. no better than your fellow christians, the jehovah's witnesses.
TS
***no better than your fellow christians, the jehovah's witnesses.***
TS,
Now that was just plain mean. Some people need religion. What ever wakes them up in the morning and puts a smile on their face, so be it. Just as long they are not trying to shove it down other people’s throats. We’ve all had enough of that foul taste in our mouths.
Dave
Hey Dave!
What a challenging and intriguing post. Let me have some time to work on this one. I may answer here or start a new thread addressed to you.
R.
Hi Dave,
A quick, partial answer for now.....
***My Lord tells me that the road to eternal life is a cramped and narrow way. I choose to travel it because I have heard His voice and recognize my shepherd.***
------------
>Yes, I have heard that one before. Another one that was written about a thousand years before Christ supposedly walked the earth was written in the Upanishads (kind of like the Hindu bible). It puts it like this; “The road to enlightenment is narrow and as difficult to walk as. the razor's edge”.
-------------
Do you really think that someone from the middle east borrowed this idea? I find this kind of wise saying to confirm that man originated from a common and small family and perhaps this idea was handed down or, man still retains the wisdom of God in this way as well as in the common thread of ethics and morals present even in diverse cultures.Kind of like the concience the great majority of us are born with.
*** Ah, the similiarities are part of the whole picture. It all goes back to Genesis and that's one of the reasons it is so fascinating. A Savior was prophecied and lo and behold, He did come!
---------------
>The same is said about many so called “saviors” and according to which religion you want to buy into, all of them did come. The majority of them came before Genesis was written or even thought of for that matter.
---------------
Yes! I would only add to that this nugget: Calvary occurred and was fulfilled prophecy, the evidence is there and demands a verdict. Paul's brilliant defense of the gospel against is one of my favorite evidences.
***Monotheism was at the root of ancient pagan beliefs,***
--------------
>I think you might be wrong here. Can you give some proof of that statement? From what I have read and studied, it was the Jewish and Christian faith that produced the concept of monotheism. Please “with some historical proof” show me where my thinking is wrong.
---------------
Have you not read of the God that spawned the lower Gods? This is quite common in the myths of old and El was claimed to have spawned many lower gods. Might those far too human demi gods be the actual worship of the created angels who fell? Egypt itself went to a monotheistic belief system for a short time.
***flood stories abound in far flung cultures, from the middle east, to the native Americans, the Aboriginal people of Australia and the list goes on.***
-------------------
>I will agree with you here. Can you show me where the flood story in the bible is the one that originated such stories?
----------------
I don't think that is provable.
***I have indeed studied the liberal, moderate and conservative views of scripture.***
---------------
>That is a good start. But, with anything so strongly suggested as truth, one must go beyond one single version of a truth. With a little research you can find many of the things attributed to Jesus’ teachings and stories also attributed to many god heroes that came centuries before him. Can you explain why?
----------------
I believe it is the same as the reason in the first question.
*** Some are betting their life and eternity on the limited reasoning and logic of man.***
-------------------
>Some are not. Man is the only creature on earth that has even pondered the concept of eternity. It must make us look a little silly to the thousand year old trees and rocks. I guess our egos can not accept the fact that a tree will out live us or does not seem to care.
--------------
Could it be that our spirit tells us that we are not meant to die at all?
*** You see the results of mankind living apart from God.***
--------------
>No, I don’t quite see it. Will you explain it to me? According to those claiming to believe in god, god has always, and will always be with us. Is it only those who do not believe in god who are causing the problems? You might want to think a little before you answer this one.
------------------
I cannot answer this without getting into some deep theological concepts. I believe that you would see where I am coming from but that is not my goal here. I can discuss this offline if you choose. Problems have developed both because of believers and non-believers and are an evidence of our fallen nature, our separation from God.
*** You see what I wrote above about sharing with people what the Lord has done for me and others through a personal relationship. I am an evangelist, pure and simple. Let that be clear***
--------------
>Anyone who talks a lot about his or her god is an evangelist. Just turn on CNN and you’ll see how some evangelists are claiming they are going to beat up the other guy’s evangelist. It’s been that way since the beginning of history. Evangelism is nothing more (to me) than a prelude to war and destruction with the excuse of doing it in the name of their god. So, in answer to your above question, I can not see the results of mankind living apart from god, but I can certainly see the results of mankind having to survive life trying to live with those who live with god.
---------------------
What if one could follow the lifestyle as described in the New Testament, derived from the man of sorrows Himself? What problem, even in an imperfect world could we not handle? What if eveyone in the world asked this before they reacted: "What would Jesus do?"
*** You surely remember the blind man from the Book of John, chapter nine? Read it and see what the Word says to you. Here was a man born blind for no reason other than to reveal God to others.***
-------------------
>Again, read the Upanishads. Same story, different caricatures. If it wasn’t for the ancient so called pagan religions that came thousands of years before Christianity, Christians wouldn’t have so many cool and mystical stories to believe in.
---------------
And Again, did they actually borrow these concepts? Some have tried to prove this and failed. Yet I ask this: if there is a basis for God to begin with, is it any surprise that a race that came from one family group would have the seed of original wisdom in them. Could it be that the stories of old were told and unbelievably, they came true in the poor son of a carpenter from Nazareth in the region of Palestine?
>Here is one you might recognize; it comes from the story of Buddha. It’s about the mother who lost her son in death and asked Buddha to help her. He told her to do something that three hundred years before Jesus was supposed to have said it.
-----------------
>“And Kisa Gotami had an only son, and he died. In her grief she carried the dead child to all her neighbors, asking them for medicine, and the people said: "She has lost her senses. The boy is dead. At length Kisa Gotami met a man who replied to her request: "I cannot give thee medicine for thy child, but I know a physician who can." The girl said: "Pray tell me, sir; who is it?" And the man replied: "Go to Sakyamuni, the Buddha."
------------------
>Kisa Gotami repaired to the Buddha and cried: "Lord and Master, give me the medicine that will cure my boy." The Buddha answered: "I want a handful of mustard-seed." And when the girl in her joy promised to procure it, the Buddha added: "The mustard-seed must be taken from a house where no one has lost a child, husband, parent, or friend." Poor Kisa Gotami now went from house to house, and the people pitied her and said: "Here is mustard-seed; take it!" But when she asked Did a son or daughter, a father or mother, die in your family?" They answered her: "Alas the living are few, but the dead are many. Do not remind us of our deepest grief." And there was no house but some beloved one had died in it.
--------------
>Kisa Gotami became weary and hopeless, and sat down at the wayside, watching the lights of the city, as they flickered up and were extinguished again. At last the darkness of the night reigned everywhere. And she considered the fate of men, that their lives flicker up and are extinguished. And she thought to herself: "How selfish am I in my grief! Death is common to all; yet in this valley of desolation there is a path that leads him to immortality who has surrendered all selfishness."
----------------
>Putting away the selfishness of her affection for her child, Kisa Gotami had the dead body buried in the forest. Returning to the Buddha, she took refuge in him and found comfort in the Dharma, which is a balm that will soothe all the pains of our troubled hearts.”
Sound familiar? There are many more just like it and many more god heroes way before Jesus that were said to do many of the miracles and tell many of the same parables as Jesus.
-------------------
>Now, can you explain this given your vast studies of the scriptures?
You see, the bible is just one small piece of the whole religion puzzle. Remember, these stories were written about other god heroes way before Jesus. Can you show me proof that I am wrong? If I am wrong Id like to know it.
-----------------
I personally am not able to answer your question, nor prove you wrong (I have the reason above but it is not proof). I will keep working on this. Have you checked out any sources for explnation in Christian apologetics circles?
It is nice to see someone take the time to investigate the spiritual and mystical realm. May I ask a question? Are you a Unitarian Universalist?
Rex
