Please refute: There is ONE true God, one creator, one savior

by M.J. 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    The bible is very clear as to the identity of Jesus and Jehovah



    Defd, you are so right on this one.

    The following scriptures support your position:

    Jer. 32:18; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 45:22; Phil. 2:10; Isa. 44:24; Ge. 18:1,14; Isa. 9:6; John 20:28; 2 Pe. 1:1; Titus 2:13; Jer. 23:6; Heb. 1:8; 1 John 5:20

    Rev. 1:17; Rev. 2:8; Rev. 22:13; Isa. 44:6; 48:12; 41:4

    Job 33:4; Isa. 40:28; Ge. 1:1; John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:10

    It's great to see that you are thinking for yourself instead of being a mindless JW robot who can only parrot the WT literature.

    Maybe you are ready to reject the apostate teachings of the WTBTS after reading these scriptures which they can't refute either.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    The question of how there can be just "one god" if Christ is a got is inappropriate since it takes two references out of context. It's just that simple.

    You see, you can read where there is just "one god" in the Bible and you can read where there are "many gods and many lords". Is that a contradiction? Or is the Bible simply using the concept of "god" in different contexts? Even Satan is called the "god of this system of things."

    So the answer is that you have to stay consistent with the context. When the Bible says there is just "one god" that is in the absolute sense in which case, Christ is not considered "god" but "lord." When the Bible says there is "just one god" it identifies Christ as the "one Lord." So there is no semantics issue Biblically. When you're not talking int he absolute sense, then Christ's deity can assume the title or role of "god" as that term applies to anyone of reference or worship, including the bad guys like Satan and the false gods or anything anyone wants to make into a god, including money or themselves or some cause.

    When the Bible says there is just "one god" you must include the context for Christ as "one Lord", you do not compare his deity as a "god" in another context here.

    JC

  • Farkel
    Farkel


    One cannot prove or disprove even the existence of God, let alone how many Gods there might be. Trying to debate whether there is one God or more than one is like stating "my imagionary friend is greater than your imaginary friend." If God wanted us to know more about him, he would have given us better information than crappy holy books that are internally contradictory.

    Farkel

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Jesus and Jehovah are one.Discuss.


    Old Testament


    New Testament

    1. Jesus (Jehovah) was the Creator of the world.


    “Thus saith the LORD, . . . I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded” (Isaiah 45:11–12).


    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1, 3.)

    2. Jehovah is the Savior.


    “Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me” (Hosea 13:4).


    “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:11).

    3. Jehovah is the Redeemer.


    “Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel” (Isaiah 43:14).


    “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Galatians 3:13).

    4. Jehovah will deliver men from death.


    “I [Jehovah] will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction” (Hosea 13:14).


    “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:20–22.)

    5. The Jews will look upon Jehovah who was pierced.


    “And I [Jehovah] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn” (Zechariah 12:10).


    “But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. . . . For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.” (John 19:34, 36–37.)

    6. Jesus followed Israel in the wilderness during the Exodus.


    “And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: he took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people” (Exodus 13:21–22).


    “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ” (1 Corinthians 10:1–4).

    7. Jehovah is the husband or bridegroom.


    “For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; the God of the whole earth shall he be called” (Isaiah 54:5).


    “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” (Revelation 19:7–8.)

    8. Jehovah is the first and the last (alpha and omega).


    “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6).


    “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).

  • BrendaCloutier
    BrendaCloutier

    If y'all say so.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Thanks for the reply JCanon. That's what I was looking for.

    So the answer is that you have to stay consistent with the context. When the Bible says there is just "one god" that is in the absolute sense in which case, Christ is not considered "god" but "lord." When the Bible says there is "just one god" it identifies Christ as the "one Lord." So there is no semantics issue Biblically. When you're not talking int he absolute sense, then Christ's deity can assume the title or role of "god" as that term applies to anyone of reference or worship, including the bad guys like Satan and the false gods or anything anyone wants to make into a god, including money or themselves or some cause.

    When the Bible says there is just "one god" you must include the context for Christ as "one Lord", you do not compare his deity as a "god" in another context here.

    I'll ponder this for a while but my first impulse is that, context or not, it seems like you're saying that the role of Christ is relegated to that of a "nobody" in the these OT passages. Jehovah saying he does all these things by himself with no help from any "lackeys" of note. Then all of a sudden in the NT Christ is such a central figure, being the creator, savior and redeemer...

    Thanks Qcmbr for those references. And I thought LDS rejected that notion.

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    I'll ponder this for a while but my first impulse is that, context or not, it seems like you're saying that the role of Christ is relegated to that of a "nobody" in the these OT passages. Jehovah saying he does all these things by himself with no help from any "lackeys" of note. Then all of a sudden in the NT Christ is such a central figure, being the creator, savior and redeemer...

    You know, it seems that way, but...

    Christ is actually omnipresent in Jewish lithrugy. Every sacrifice, every symbolism, even the sabbath points to him. But the focus on YHWH in relation to Isreal is because in a sense, since Israel provides the Messiah, THEY were the Messiah. And they are exchanged in that sense for the Messiah in prophecy. I AGREE! But it doesn't mean the pointer was to the Messiah. They were the chosen ones who provided the Messiah.

    Also, Christ was given a "promotion" after he came to the earth. He was, yes, the archangel and the most prominent being, but every knee was not bending to him yet. When he came to the earth and died, God enforced that everyone was to worship him as their god because God gave EVERYTHING to him. God said, "It's ALL yours!"

    And also, in the case of the Jews, they were only promised the kingship through David through the tribe of Judah "until he who has the right comes." That means that the second coming Messiah would not be Jewish of the tribe of Judah, but someone with no specific lineage, a king-priest like Melchizedek.

    But YES. Christ is not so prominently identified in Jewish culture until after he arrived, but he is implied in everything though the Jewish nation is the foundation of the salvation of mankind and as that basis, they become the "messiah nation."

    The esoteric references to all this, though do recognize Christ. He is one of the the two angels on the ark of the covenant. The 12 stones on the breastplate represent his angelic identity. As noted, the sacrifices are about him. Everything leads up to him and implies that only through him there is salvation. But in Jewish culture the physical, human Messiah is emphasized rather than Michael the archangel. For Christians, its the deity Christ... the deity Christ (no typo).

    I'm glad you are considering this. Language usage sometimes does come into play. It's looks like a cheap way out, but really it is not always.

    JC

  • SouthernBell
  • SouthernBell
    SouthernBell

    left margin
    What is the Trinity?
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    left margin
    Describing God

    God is described with different words in the Bible, a few of which translate into English as LORD, Lord, the LORD almighty, God, God Almighty and so forth. When reading these in different places in the Bible, you become aware that although God is “one” He is also “more than one”—God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). Together, they are referred to as “the Trinity” or “the Godhead.” On this page we will provide explanations that help people understand God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity. As always, if you have any questions, please feel free to contact us (but read this page first smile ).

    God is not so complex that He can not be understood. The Bible is written so that anyone can understand Him. The difference is that God is not human, so He can not be described as a human can be described. The gods of every other religion can be described in “normal” terms since they were invented in the minds of men.* Even some “Christians” (actually Christian cults) invent their own description of God and make Him seem like these other gods (by denying the aspect of the Trinity). On this page we will clarify the Trinity so that you can understand this aspect of God.

    * Romans 1:20-23 (chapter 1, verses 20-23)
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    The Simple Answer

    The explanation of the Trinity is so simple that most people miss it.

    * If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were the same, they would not have different names.
    * If they were the same, they would not appear separately as they do in Matthew 3:16,17.
    * In spite of being different, they are “one.” (John 10:30)

    So we understand that the three “members” of the Trinity are different, but have the same purpose (and they are all God—more on that later).
    A Rough Analogy

    About 20 years ago, Dr. Harold Willmington (Liberty University) shared an analogy he had heard with his students, comparing the Trinity to a book. For example, a book has length, width, and thickness. The length is not the book’s width, the width is not the book’s thickness. These three dimensions can be described separately, yet they are connected together. If you remove one dimension, you are no longer describing a book. In the same way, the Godhead has three separate members that are connected together, and if you try to remove one you no longer have the Godhead.
    God Is One

    God is described as “one” in Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Kings 8:60, Isaiah 44:8 and numerous other passages. For example, Deuteronomy 6:4 says “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!” The word for “one” is the Hebrew word ‘echad. (This Old Testament text was originally written in Hebrew). This is the same Hebrew word that is used for “one” in Genesis 2:24—Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

    In case you haven’t noticed smile when a man and woman are married they do not melt into one human being, becoming some sort of hybrid. Yet, they do become “one.” We could cite other examples, but we have made our point.
    God Is More Than One

    Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, and other passages are examples of conversations within which God uses the word “we” or “us.” However, God is not referring to any others (people, angels, etc.) in these verses. Since God is having a conversation, the “we” and “us” must therefore refer to the Trinity. You might say that God speaks to Himself in the plural form.
    The Trinity Is God

    Matthew 28:16-20 is a passage referred to as “The Great Commission.” In verse 19, Jesus states, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

    Why did Jesus tell his eleven disciples to baptize people in the names of all three members of the Trinity? Why not one or two? It is obvious from this passage that the entire Trinity is God.
    Jesus Is God

    We understand that many people agree that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit exist. (We are sure that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are relieved to hear that! smile ) These same people may even agree that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are “working together.” However, the followers of several cults are taught that Jesus is “just a prophet,” or “only the son of God”—not God. This wrong viewpoint is easily clarified by looking at two Bible verses: Isaiah 9:6, and Isaiah 43:12 (below).

    Isaiah 9:6
    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God [0410],
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Isaiah 43:12
    I have declared and saved,
    I have proclaimed,
    And there was no foreign god among you;
    Therefore you are My witnesses,”
    Says the LORD [03068], “that I am God [0410].”

    Notice the numbers in brackets that we placed in the text. Those numbers indicate the “Strong’s Numbers” of those particular words. Strong’s Numbers are index numbers in a document called a “Strong’s Concordance” that allow someone who only reads English to understand what the Bible’s original Hebrew words are. For example, the number [03068] refers to the Hebrew word YHWH. This word is usually written in English as LORD, Jehovah, or (phonetically) Y@hovah. Similarly, the number [0410] refers to the Hebrew word ‘el, which is normally written in English as God.

    It has been thoroughly proven that Isaiah 9:6 is a Messianic Prophecy referring to Jesus Christ. Notice how Isaiah 43:12 clearly shows that God (YHWH) refers to himself as God (‘El)—the exact same term (‘El) used to refer to Jesus. There are numerous other examples, but we will not belabor the point. It is obvious that God and Jesus are both God.
    Jesus Doing What Only God Can Do

    Mark chapter 2 opens up with an interesting story about Jesus healing a paralytic man. Notice that Jesus forgives the man’s sins in verse 5 and the reaction of the teachers of the law (the religious experts of the day) in verses 6 and 7.

    Mark chapter 2
    1 And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house.
    2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them.
    3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men.
    4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.
    5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
    6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
    7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
    8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?
    9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’?
    10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic,
    11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
    12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

    The teachers of the law knew that only God could forgive sin. Since the people could not “see” sin being forgiven, Jesus proved He did indeed forgive the man’s sins by supernaturally healing the man’s paralysis (providing visible proof everyone could see). You can also read about this event in Luke 5:17-26. In both cases it is obvious that Jesus is God.
    Out of the Mouth of Jesus

    In Luke 22:70 and John 8:58, Jesus answers questions put to him by the Pharisees that declare Himself to be on “God’s level.” Notice how Jesus answered their questions by saying “I am.” (Ego eimi in Greek.) Ego eimi is not a translation of YHWH, but it is similar to our translating YHWH into “I AM” in English. This choice of words was not lost on the Jewish audience He was talking to! They immediately wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy. That is, the Jews believed that by comparing Himself to God in that way, that Jesus deserved death. They clearly understood the implication Jesus was making—that He was the same as God. We hope that makes sense to you also.

    To learn more about the Trinity, we recommend reading the booklet The Holy Trinity by H. A. Ironside.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    Allah - There is one God but ALLAH and MOHAMMED IS HIS MESSENGER

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