I work with a JW (we're business partners) and about a month ago we had a chat on IM that led to talking about JW's and to the JW-UN thing. I didn't plan on bringing it up until he jokingly called me "pagan" and said he'd "save a seat" for me at the meeting.
After this chat I was hoping for more opportunity to discuss this stuff with him but so far he seems to be afraid to discuss religion at all. Don't know if this struck a nerve or not. In an case, here's the chat for any who are interested in reading it. I hope it's ok to post something so long. If not, let me know and I won't do it again:
Conversation with xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
...
(14:49:27) JW: I don't want to go to the meeting tonight so I don't have to sit with my kids by myself
(14:49:34) JW: I want to skip sooo bad
(14:50:02) JW: they crawled all over me at the bookstudy last night, I felt like a jungle jim
(14:50:12) JW: Just kidding pagan
(14:50:22) ME: yeah, i remember those days. meetings were scary with a kid that wanted to make noise.
(14:50:54) JW: I'll save you a seat just in case
(14:51:31) JW: double my pain, plus mine are twice as loud as yours ever was, so mulitiply by 4
(14:51:47) JW: I gotta start wearing 2 condoms
(14:51:50) ME: i spent most of the meetings standing in the back.
(14:52:25) JW: I might try that if they get too bad, just want them to learn and be respectful
(14:53:23) ME: i'll just spend time on an ex-jw support board.
(14:53:47) JW: That was not even funny
(14:53:52) ME: oh, jw = jehovah's witness. forgot that you don't know all the jargon :)
(14:53:54) JW: xxxxx would be screaming right how
(14:54:05) ME: wasn't supposed to be funny.
(14:54:06) JW: JW is not computer jargon
---chatting on other subjects---
Sarcastic comment about some people we used to know:
(14:56:58) JW: You and he and xxxxx all get together and have dinner once a week don't you.
(14:57:08) JW: Thats your Ex-JW support group
(14:57:10) ME: that's sick
(14:57:21) JW: Ewe, that is enough to keep me going to meetings right there
(14:57:23) ME: no, my ex-jw support is real.
(14:57:29) JW: on line
(14:57:33) ME: yep
(14:57:36) JW: why?
(14:57:50) JW: is it like a apostate thing
(14:58:17) ME: because people raised as jw's have alot of built in thinking that is hard to identify and see how it affects your everyday life.
(14:58:35) ME: no, contrary to popular (jw) belief, it's not a bunch of apostates.
(14:59:14) ME: see, now i got you stressed. not my plan, but hey, it happens.
(14:59:31) JW: I am not stressed, just don't really understand.
(14:59:49) ME: what don't you understand?
(14:59:54) ME: if you don't mind my asking.
(15:00:48) JW: We were raised basically the same and I just don't get what bothers you in such a way as to stay away and "need" support. I don't "get" everything and fully understand it all, but I believe in Jehovah and believe that JW's are his earthly organization.
(15:01:43) JW: I have looked at other christian religions and other nonchristian religions and they don't offer me answers that even begin to satisfy my questions.
(15:02:26) ME: i know you do and i understand that. but i don't and that's the main difference. i believe i was raised in a way that makes me believe that all non-jw's are "the world" and now that i left it's sometimes odd to be part of "the world" because burned in things in my brain keep me thinking a certain way.
(15:02:33) JW: I don't think I am some brain washed JW child that is so naive as to believe everything he was ever told. I have asked questions, but after doing research have generally been able to find answers
(15:03:52) ME: and i think that's your business. it's not my place to tell you if you're right or wrong. but it is my place to decide for myself. i think i WAS a brainwashed person, and that's my belief but i don't think it's my place to decide for other people, just me.
(15:04:03) JW: I know that there are good people in "the world". But if they are not living up to Jehovahs standards, not JW's but Jehovah's, isn't there some concern.
(15:04:38) JW: if you never looked elsewhere I can understand your thinking that. I have and the alternative scares me.
(15:05:13) ME: i find that jw's also seem to comment that "if you don't agree with jw's, which religion will you pick?" i don't see it that way, but i used to.
(15:05:25) ME: not trying to impress my views on you, just answering questions.
(15:05:38) JW: When I was disfellowshiped and cut off from Jehovah's organization, I got to really see what people outside his organization had to deal with.
(15:06:23) JW: I believe that most people who basically stop being JW's simply stop, not join or start their own religion.
(15:06:34) ME: and i think you need to make the decision that you think is best for you and your family. that's important and you put alot of effort into it. not my place to sway you.
(15:06:50) ME: yes, i agree with your last comment. that's where i see myself.
(15:07:03) JW: I don't think you are trying to sway me, I just think talking about it isn't a bad thing.
(15:07:47) JW: I think a lot of people get discouraged by the stuff that does happen in the organization. Just like Catholics get discouraged with all the things going on with the priests and stuff.
(15:07:54) ME: i've done alot of reading and study from the bible over the past year or so, but not the NWT. that has given me a different view than jw's.
(15:08:38) JW: I just keep in mind that people are imperfect and as long as that is true, no matter what they are going to make wrong, and bad decessions. Unfortunately that many times affect other people.
(15:08:49) ME: also the comments by russel and some WT's that "people that leave the organization and study only from the Bible tend to return to the beliefs of Christendom." My thought is, "why is that?" i think i see why now.
(15:08:54) JW: what translation
(15:09:14) ME: mostly the NIV and KJ.
(15:09:43) JW: what kind of beliefs are you refering to?
(15:10:05) JW: Trinity? Hellfire?
(15:10:13) ME: heavenly hope, faith in Jesus and worshiping Jesus.
(15:10:44) ME: i'll be very blunt with my next comment and it's meant to express my view, but not to sway you...
(15:11:47) ME: i see the WTBTS as a very good example of modern day Pharisees and also a False Prophet. that's my view. i don't express it to any jw unless they seem to be asking for my view. it is NOT my intention to sway jw's from their beliefs, only to express my own if asked.
(15:13:29) JW: How do you see it this way,
(15:13:38) JW: give me some example
(15:15:46) ME: mainly due to the very specific day to day rules of even life's minor activities (what to wear, how to study, how to shave, what kind of sandals women should wear etc...). It's burdening down the flock as Jesus warned the Pharisees against... That's one example.
(15:17:08) ME: false prophet = predicting specific dates but then saying later that they didn't. I can understand the careful wording to avoid looking like they did, but now i can look at old literature and compare it to what's on the WT Library and see that sentences and words have been changed. very 1984 like. makes things very suspicious.
(15:17:23) JW: I can see how you can see it somewhat restrictive, the difference to me as they make suggestions, but they don't disfellowship you for wearing a beard and stuff like that.
(15:18:16) ME: no. but how easy is it for a brother to be in the congregation with a beard? or a sister to wear pants to every meeting? "suggestions" are just careful wording. jw's know how to treat people that don't conform.
(15:18:21) JW: I don't remember any specific dates being predicted as to the final end. I know many looked at 1975 and obviously it didn't happen
(15:19:48) ME: there's others, but that's not a huge issue to me. it became a huge issue when i saw how they changed things from older literature. seems to me to hide it from people who never read it in the first place. even stuff like saying "we don't claim to be a prophet" when in previous literature they specifically call themselves a prophet.
(15:19:50) JW: I guess it is hard for me to answer that as I have never tried to wear a beard a stuff like that. But that really has more to do with being in the USA than a JW. In Europe and other places things like that are not as much at least of an issue
(15:20:37) ME: but i'm in the USA. it's a "worldwide brotherhood".
(15:20:46) JW: couldn't some of that simply getting more knowledge from the holy spirit that they weren't a prophet?
(15:21:28) ME: but why take it out of reprints of old literature? sometimes doing something sneaky sure makes it look like you're trying to hide something.
(15:21:42) JW: I guess I mark it up to imperfection. I have been in many "groups" of people and no matter how much alike they are or how nice they are, things always happen.
(15:22:08) JW: I was not aware they have taken it out of things.
(15:22:11) ME: how about the WTBTS being part of the UN until they were found out? that was very strange to me.
(15:22:25) JW: Part of the UN?
(15:23:24) ME: http://www.geocities.com/wts_rides_the_beast/un_confirms_wts_assoc.jpg
(15:26:33) JW: I agree it is a little strange, but what they were a part of was not the same as being a part of the UN.
(15:26:55) JW: when they asked to be terminated, when was that and what happened?
(15:27:51) ME: The main part of concern is that they agreed to "support and respect of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations"
(15:31:44) JW: Although it would have been kinda stupid, there is the chance they didn't do the research and see that and when they did they asked to be removed. Someone that wanted to could then hightlight it and make it look very negative. You said "found out" did someone outside the organizaiton find it out or did they?
(15:32:25) JW: I just don't always assume the worst. Maybe that is a weakness in me, but I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
(15:32:27) ME: There's a ton of stuff about it, i'm looking for a link that isn't just blatantly negative but has enough facts...
(15:32:47) ME: Try this: http://www.geocities.com/wts_rides_the_beast/Awake112298.htm
(15:33:25) ME: How careful do you think the WTBTS would be about something like this? Do you think they'd just jump at it without knowing the facts? That would seem awfully odd.
(15:33:40) ME: I agree with you... Don't always assume the worst....
(15:33:51) JW: reading the link now
(15:34:03) ME: Therefore no ONE thing has turned me away from JW's. But many things. This is just one, not the only thing.
(15:38:53) ME: brb...
