Premonition Dreams?

by Evanescence 43 Replies latest jw friends

FMZ

Jeffro, the usual "you had a vague memory and it matched someone elses" thing is a pretty pathetic argument, as the dream was so profound, I wrote down the details, drew pictures, even created a 3d model of the area I was in. I then asked my friend what he saw in his dream.
He drew the landscape PERFECTLY, put an red X on it where I was in the dream, described a statue I had seen in the dream perfectly, including the kind of architecture and shapes involved. I may still have the pics on my computer at work.
Please Jeffro, don't assume I am just some dumbass who thinks he remembers something he didn't. Try again.
FMZ
tetrapod.sapien

hey FMZ,
i saw your challenge, and i will whip something up. i've done it in several other threads before, but it doesn't take long, so i don't mind.
He drew the landscape PERFECTLY, put an red X on it where I was in the dream, described a statue I had seen in the dream perfectly, including the kind of architecture and shapes involved. I may still have the pics on my computer at work.
it would be cool if you could share those drawings. the peices of your puzzle fall together so perfectly the way that you describe them.
the thing you have to remember about this sort of thing (i'll touch on it in the occam's razor bit), is that, spiritual or physical, there has to be some sort of conduit between two people, that no one has been able to quantifiy or reduce yet. if physical (really what i'm interested in), then you have to take into account that differnt neural patterns in different people matched up miraculously. neural networks in everyones brains are different. so while we can map brain area to brain area functionality, we cannot map thought to thought process. and that's what you and others are claiming. that a group of snyapses, chemicals and neurons were somehow grouped together in one persons mind to make some sort of "unit" that was capable of transport by a still unidentified means, and then was actually transported somehow to another persons brain region, and somehow mapped themselves (neurons, chemicals and synapses) to a different set of said.
or are you more in favour of a spiritual explanation? because i can do the occam's razor thing for both.
anyhoo, i'll whip up the razor for thom's experience.
TS
tetrapod.sapien
Occam's Razor:
Was talking to my sister-in-law a couple of weeks ago and she was telling me how my brother and her daughter have been having the same dream for years. I told her "Hey, I have had this dream for many years about this house" and then gave her some details and she says "Oh sh**! That's the same dream they have! She put my brother on the phone and I find that all three of us are dreaming about the same house, with the same details and the same odd things about the house (it's a cool house).
I can see that maybe my brother and I could be remembering something from childhood, but his step daugter was raised completely separate from us.

The interesting thing about the house that we dream about is that it appears to be the same house. Split level, large wide stairs in the entry, and most intesting is that all three of us are drawn to the fact that we've "found" a part of the house that appears to be through a door in the same location in all our dreams. It leads to what is almost another house. Two bedrooms, a bathroom, a kitchen and decorated in art deco. Even the layout of the furniture is the same for all three of us. In each of our dreams, we're the only ones that know about that part of the house.

(thom, this is nothing personal, just an intellectual exercise. thx)
first, some notes:
the very fact that you two (or three?) communicate about the dream, raises doubts in my mind.
one of the subjects is a child. they're highly impressionable. tell a child a story, and they could dream about it.
odd things are precisely the things that would stand out to all three of you, increasing the chances of you dreaming about them.
an explanation of the razor:
Occam's Razor (also spelt Ockham's Razor), is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. It forms the basis of methodological reductionism, also called the principle of parsimony or law of economy.
In its simplest form, Occam's Razor states that one should make no more assumptions than needed. Put into everyday language, it says
The simplest explanation is the best.
When multiple explanations are available for a phenomenon, the simplest version is preferred. For example, a charred tree on the ground could be caused by a landing alien ship or a lightning strike. According to Occam's Razor, the lightning strike is the preferred explanation as it requires the fewest assumptions.
and now, the Razor:
explanation 1: the spirit realm did it.
assumption: there is a spirit realm
assumption: this spirit realm has a way of interacting with the physical.
assumption: it does interact with the physical.
assumption: it is able to capture thoughts (chemicals, neurons and synapses) and map them to another persons brain causing the same thoughts (chemicals, neurons and synapses).
assumption: it does this at night while people are dreaming.
explanation 2: the physical world is way more funky than we can know
assumption: there is a hidden, yet undetected, conduit between peoples brains.
assumption: this conduit transports thoughts between peoples brains on occasion.
assumption: this conduit is able to capture thoughts (chemicals, neurons and synapses) and map them to another persons brain causing the same thoughts (chemicals, neurons and synapses).
assumption: it does this at night while people are dreaming.
explanation 3: mouldable group think
assumption: there was communication between the party's regarding oddities in the house.
assumption: the party's dreamt about the oddities.
explanation 3a: mouldable group think v.2
assumption: the party's dreamt about the oddities of their house.
assumption: the party's stories coalesced into into one upon communication of the dreams.
conclusion: explanation 3(a) is the simplest, and therefore should be the preferred explanation. group think is a observed and documented phenomenon by psychologists (source: Janis,1972).
Sincerely,
TS
the_classicist

While the simplest explanation is usually the best, it is not logical to say that the best explanation is true.
T_C of the just-dropping-through Class
tetrapod.sapien
yes,
and i should also say that parsimony and tools like Occam's Razor, do not establish the 100% truth of the matter. but they establish the highest probablity of truth when dealing with unfalsifiable situations.
i also found this cool point list that runs down Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit, whic includes Occam's Razor as one of the tools:
The following are suggested as tools for testing arguments and detecting fallacious or fraudulent arguments:
Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts
Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.
Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").
Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.
Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours.
Quantify, wherever possible.
If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work.
"Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.
Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, it is testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?
thom

tetrapod.sapien:
"(thom, this is nothing personal, just an intellectual exercise. thx)

first, some notes:

* the very fact that you two (or three?) communicate about the dream, raises doubts in my mind.
* one of the subjects is a child. they're highly impressionable. tell a child a story, and they could dream about it.
* odd things are precisely the things that would stand out to all three of you, increasing the chances of you dreaming about them."

I agree with you that communication about the dream can sway eachother's views on it. I really don't necessarily believe that there's anything more to it than coincidence, but of course I'm not certain about that.
His step daughter is 20 years old, she says she's had this dream for years and so have he and I. My brother and I only talked about it once, and he and his step daughter discussed it only after she was married and had moved out of his house, she and he never discussed it or were aware the other had the dream while she lived in his house.
Again, I just find it interesting. I used to just brush all this kind of stuff off in the past, but maybe since I'm no longer a JW, and no longer just think this kind of stuff should be ignored for fear of demonic influence, I'm more interested in seeing if there is anything more to this kind of thing than just coincidence.
tetrapod.sapien

thom,
cool, i was hoping that you would come back and explain a bit further. the fact that your neice is 20 years certainly changes things a bit. not the razor part, but more that you are all basically adults and having these dreams.
anything else interesting about this house, or about the three of you?
sincerely,
TS
Jeffro

FMZ wrote:
Jeffro, the usual "you had a vague memory and it matched someone elses" thing is a pretty pathetic argument, as the dream was so profound,
Based on the information you had originally supplied, it was a perfectly valid argument.
I wrote down the details, drew pictures, even created a 3d model of the area I was in.
You created a 3D model?? That sounds like an awful lot of effort to go to, especially if you had not yet discussed the dream with anyone. Sounds just a little obsessive-compulsive. It does really sound like an assertion that someone would put forward in reaction to anyone disagreeing with their story.
I then asked my friend what he saw in his dream.
He drew the landscape PERFECTLY, put an red X on it where I was in the dream, described a statue I had seen in the dream perfectly, including the kind of architecture and shapes involved. I may still have the pics on my computer at work.
It is possible that the place is somewhere you have both been to, or have both seen. Failing that, how do you suggest that two people can have the same dream? There is simply no mechanism for it to occur.
Please Jeffro, don't assume I am just some dumbass who thinks he remembers something he didn't. Try again.
It is common for people to forget details of dreams, and to have elements of the dream confused with details from sources other than the dream. It is not the quality of a 'dumbass', and it is a completely valid postulation.
thom

TS,
"anything else interesting about this house, or about the three of you?"
Not much more than I've already described. But to all three of us the house is appealing (like we'd like to live in it the part nobody knows about). Maybe we dream about it because we like it, but doesn't really explain why we all dream of the same house, or at least it seems like it's the same house.
My only experience with dreams or premonitions is that feeling you get (well, I get and I assume others do to) sometimes when you get in the car and just "feel" like you're going to get a ticket or an accident, and then do. Or how I often (very often) pick up the phone to call my girlfriend and it rings in my hand and it's her. That happens quite alot to us as she tells me the same thing happens on her end.
These kinds of things have led me to believe that maybe, just maybe there is some form of communication going on between people, even people far away from eachother that we really don't understand. I don't know that or even necessarily am I convinced of it, but I do believe it's possible.
I only knew my neice when she was very young, and then they moved to Alaska, so I didn't see her for over 10 years. But my SIL tells me now that she (my neice) always thought alot of me. Maybe there's some kind of connection? I really don't know.
rem

Hey Thom,

A lot of that is just classic psychology. In particular, it is a well known phenomenon that we humans forget misses and remember hits. It's just in our nature.

So you probably think about your girlfriend a lot before you pick up the phone, but it only makes a solid memory when she calls at the same time. Of course there is no reason for your brain to try and remember all of the other times nothing happens. So it comes down to coincidence that is bound to happen with the number of times we use the phone along with the number of times we think of our loved ones.

This is one of those classic phenomena that are explained in some good books on critical thinking, such as "Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan and "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer.

rem

Premonition Dreams?

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