Randomness is not necessary for evolution (page 2)

Pole

::the program, like AVIDA for example, uses so-called "randomness". it never produces the same thing twice, or that we can tell anyways for all intents and purposes. but, the computer itself is not random entity, or processing environment.

And what do you think is the "so-called randomness"? One of basic the principles of the program is to simulate randomness. So I think saying "the computer itself is not random entity" is only tantamount to admitting one of the flaws of the program.

Pole

tetrapod.sapien

Pole

tetra,
::can a random number generator on a computer, actually generate truly random numbers? the way that radioactive decay is random? i am really curious.
Believe me or not, but there was yet another thread with a few posts on that (the one on GUIDS started about Elsewhere) ;-). The answer is these are pseudo-random numbers, but good enough to simulate random processes unless you run the same program for billions of times. Then you may see some patterns emerging. But from the practical point of view these numbers are "random enough".
::anyways, evolution does not need pure randomness to work, as already demonstrated. so it's not a weakness/flaw in the program at all, if it's random number generator is not truly random. a simulation of randomness, and true "randomness" are different, i'm sure you'd agree. but the computers processor does not act randomly, but rather through logic gates, no?
I agree and this is why I said it is a certain ***theoretical*** limitation, when you explicitly use a random-number generator to simulate randomness and yet you only get approximations. As Elsewhere pointed out in the other thread the computer uses seed numbers to generate random numbers Those seed numbers can be obtained from the current indication of the hardware clock. If you think it's a deterministic method, then you are effectively saying evolution depends on the indications of the hardware clock of your PC. LOL. ;-)
::for the intent and purpose of the experiement, it is random enough to produce diversity, regardless of the system it runs in. and it's the same with embryonic mutation in nature. it's random enough to produce biological diversity.
Sure. "Random enough" - my point exactly.
Pole

rem

Awesome, TS. I don't have a cluster, but I do use Linux. :) I'll check it out.

rem

Deputy Dog

Randomness is all there is in a Godless universe. Nothing happens for a reason, it just happens.

seattleniceguy

Randomness is all there is in a Godless universe. Nothing happens for a reason, it just happens.

Deputy Dog, the whole point of this thread is that randomness is not necessary for evolution to occur. I personally do not believe truly causeless things happen in our universe, and I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that evolution does occur.

However, it seems that you equate evolution with a "Godless universe"? Evolution has nothing to do with the universe being Godless or Godful. Evolution is purely about biological change over time. Why make the assumption that God evolution = random = Godless? Forgive me if I have misunderstood you.

SNG

Deputy Dog

SNG

Deputy Dog, the whole point of this thread is that randomness is not necessary for evolution to occur.

Are you making a plea for Theistic evolution?

D Dog

seattleniceguy

Are you making a plea for Theistic evolution?

No, for two reasons: 1) I do not believe there is any evidence for such a claim, and 2) It is not necessary.

Let me backtrack a bit and describe in better detail why I began this thread in the first place. Creationists often complain about the supposed randomness in evolution. The fact of the matter is that randomness does not play a major role in evolution. Biological change from parent to offspring is a critical requirement for evolution. But that change could be completely deterministic, and evolution would still function just fine.

By deterministic, I mean something whose outcome is set, given a particular input. For example, a calculator functions in a deterministic manner. It is impossible to get random results. If you punch in 8 times 9, then by golly, the answer is going to be 72, regardless of the time of day or the mood of the operator.

In contrast, consider the mechanism for genetic change from generation to generation. As it happens, offspring have a mixture of genes from their parents, and some elements of the mixture seem to have a "random" aspect to them, inasfar as it is not currently possible for us to predict exactly what genetic combination will result from any given sperm-egg combination. So it might well be that reproduction is not a deterministic process. However, let's imagine that there was no randomness at all - a sperm and egg contributed genetic material in a 100% mechanistic, deterministic fashion, so that it was possible to exactly predict what the genes of the offspring would be. Even in this case, evolution would continue to function without a hitch.

The reason for this is that evolution actually doesn't have anything to do with randomness. Yes, it functions in a universe where small random events seem to occur. But evolution itself is not perturbed by randomness. In a deterministic system is works just as well, provided that the system is capable of creating sufficient genetic diversity.

So my main point in this thread was to illustrate that evolution really has nothing to do with randomness.

Hope that makes sense,
SNG

peacefulpete

It's also good to learn that some of the biggest steps in the evolution of life on earth involved speciation from intimate symbiotic relationships (eg. mitochondria and chloroplasts etc) and hybridization. In recent years we've observed entirely new species of plants and animals resulting from nonsterile hybrids refusing to breed with either parent species.

Deputy Dog

SNG

My point is that even if such an evolutionary process were 100% predictable, location in the time and space of any form of life, would completely change the outcome. Not to mention other "random" forces acting on that life.

D Dog

Randomness is not necessary for evolution

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