Watchtower Stock Gamblers?

by ros 21 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  belbab

  <b> ROS </b>every thing in bold, bold bold.

  YOU'RE RIGHT ON THE MONEY, HONEY! YOU'RE ON A ROLL! SEVEN COME ELEVEN!

  (QUOTE)
  In case of the JWs, an added incentive is the premise that they are in effect making Jehovah God their heir. What a privilege! Not to mention that: 1) no doubt the time is so short that it will not significantly deprive their children or other heirs; 2) a little added faithfulness for surviving Armageddon, which may be expected to occur before the doners would even die; or at least give some added confidence of being resurrected in the new world if they should happen to pass on a little before the end.

  Whoopee! MARTIN LUTHER I: What was the condemnation he had against the Catholic Church, that changed the whole face of Christendom in his day, and set in motion the reformation and Protestant movement?

  THE SALE OF INDULGENCES! Like mother like daughter, the above quote shows that the Christ Cong, King Kong is wearing the same dress. STRIP HER NAKED AND EXPOSE HER SHAME!

  When I posted, messages about this topic on H20 and on this board, under your ---WOW !!!---post, and after somethings turned sour, Farkel hitting the F U key on his computer etc. The question went through my mind, "Is this subject turning the spotlight on a useless and unloving subject?" Then the question arose in my mind, "What was the one of the first things Jesus accomplished in his ministry?"

  HE THREW THE MONEY CHANGERS OUT OF THE TEMPLE!

  It is not a question here in this thread whether it is right or wrong to PLAY the stock market. The ERROR Is, in Jesus' words, "IT IS WRITTEN, 'MY HOUSE WILL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER,' BUT YOU ARE MAKING IT A CAVE OF ROBBERS."

  belbab, sweeping up the temple courtyard, and putting the sweepings back in the pockets of the widows.
• 

  Utopian Reformist

  WOW! Excellent post Ros! I am so angry, I am absolutely without speech...
• 

  Sam Beli

  Hi Ros,

  I am pretty much with larc on this one, can’t find much in print, but it has been generally considered wrong among JWs to invest in the markets. Had a call from a close relative because her husband was about to invest in stocks and she wanted me to tell her that it was wrong – this was way back when I was still viewed by the family as a good JW.

  I was already investing in the market at the time myself, so my answer surprised and disappointed her.

  Investing in good stocks is little different (maybe safer) than investing in a new business. JWs start new businesses for themselves all the time, though they are often small janitorial or similar businesses. Nevertheless, any new business is a gamble of sorts. A friend of mine always said that 9 out of 10 new businesses fail. That was his observation from his vantage point.

  The apostle Paul (the tent maker) was a business man, I presume. Any business person is taking a gamble with a start-up new endeavor.

  Buying stocks is no different, IMHO. In effect, the buyer of stock is loaning money to the company so the company can buy machinery or what ever it needs to establish the company’s operations. In exchange, the company agrees to pay back portions of the company’s profits over time (I guess this is “value” investing). Some companies do not make a profit for a long time, but if their idea and business plan are considered “hot” the stock price goes up even though the company makes no profit in anticipation of future profits (this is “growth’ investing).

  Life is a gamble, getting in one’s car each time is a gamble. Gambling of this sort is nearly unavoidable in modern life. Sensible stock buying is nearly an absolute must for today’s young people if they hope to retire comfortably in their old age. Old people like me need to be getting out some day.

  Should the WTS invest in the stock markets? Good question. Most businesses have places for the “short-term” holdings, perhaps money market accounts. Mid-term and longer term assets are often placed in bonds or more conservative stocks. Should the WTS have enough money to need “long-term” investment strategies? Is that what you are asking?

  Warm regards,

  Sam Beli

  I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted. Eccl 1:14, 15
• 

  belbab

  Patriot, thanks for the info input.

  I believe the book/booklet you are referring to is on the web at "Watchtower Observer" at:

  http://watchtower.observer.org/

  Go to the site, go to menu at left, scroll down to "JWs and money" (small letters search carefully} go to second page link at bottom of first page, scroll down on second page almost to bottom to subject, WATCHTOWER AS BEGGARS. There you will find all 32 pages of the booklet, photocopied, with colored pictures, its all there!

  If you wish to read additional comments on this booklet, go to ROS'
  origial post on this subject with topic title: ...w-w.. in the center of the title, I forget the full name.

  I like the quote you use at the bottom of your post? Do you know where it came from. Do you know, the persons, famous and favorite of many in the twentieth century you proclaimed far and wide that TRUTH IS A PATHLESS LAND? E-mail me if you are interested in knowing.

  belbab, directing traffic.
• 

  bluesapphire

  Sam, I don't think the question is, "Is investing in the stock market wrong?" I think the relevant question is, "Why is gambling a disfellowshipping offense?"

  You're right, there are all sorts of gambling, even getting in one's car. So why make it a disfellowshipping offence when someone engages in it for money? When you get in your car to go to work, you're doing it for money, aren't you?

  I believe it is also morally wrong for the Watchtower to swindle people's inheritance. That really shows GREED. It was one of the things that made me go "hmmmmm" way back when. Everyone in the car groups was discussing how old sister so-and-so gave the society her money and how her unbelieving children (devil's spawn) were upset that she had given away their inheritance. No one seemed to even consider how wrong that was and how utterly greedy!
• 

  ros

  Larc and Sam:

  I personally do not consider investing in the stock market wrong. I also do not think its wrong to buy a lotterie ticket, especially for charity. I see nothing wrong with recreational gambling. Like drugs or booze, its abuse or excess of anything that makes it wrong.
  Nor am I saying that the Watchtower condemns stock market investing--obviously they don’t.
  My point was that stock market investing fits their definition of “greed” and why they mainly define “greed” as “gambling”.

  I disagree with VM44 that investing in stock is not gambling. My 401K, which is invested in “solid companies” has lost somewhere between 20-30,000 this year alone. Imagine what might have happened to a large investor like the Watchtower Society. Investing in stock in “solid companies” DOES NOT guarantee a return. Even the Watchtower acknowledged that the stock market can "crash".

  The Watchtower, in explaining why buying a charitable lotterie ticket is gambling, and therefore “greed”, is that the purchaser “hopes to win”! Imagine THAT! They are trying to gain money without working for it! They want to invest a small sum of money in hopes of making more than they spent! According to the WTS (not me) that’s desiring to make money without working for it and that’s “greed”!!!

  Remember, the theory of playing the stock market is to buy low and sell high. Also remember, that when stock dips, somebody is losing--but that may be the time to buy. Its a gamble. If you buy stock low, hoping it will go high, why does that not fit the WTS’s definition (not mine) of greed?

  Otherwise, if its okay to buy stock, hoping it will go up (which usually when you can buy it, its because somebody else is selling it because they think it will go down), then why is it so wrong--even a sin worth DFing--to buy a simple little lottery ticket or join in a little office baseball pool?

  This subject was really just an offshoot from another thread about discovering the WTS’s policy to influence their members with savings to turn their holdings over to the Society while they are alive, without consideration for the family heirs. Talk about “greed”!!! Remember the scripture in Proverbs in my initial post, about inheritance/greed?

  Hey, its not me who thinks greed is gambling--its the WTS!
  If its a sin to buy a lottery ticket or join an office pool, then it ought to be a sin to eat a hot fudge sundae (gluttony).
• 

  larc

  Ros,

  It seems to me that the word, gambling, has fuzzy boundries to it. As someone pointed out, starting a business is a bigger gamble than investing in quality stocks. My daughter started a business a year ago. Was it a gamble? I would prefer to call it a calculated risk. She knew a lot about the business. She got the busines with no money down and a very small monthly payment and a very low overall cost. Even so, the first year was scary for her, and she made a few mistakes, but is in good shape today.

  Another item to consider are the odds of a favorable outcome. With lottery tickets, the odds are very bad. I is like playing a game where you give me a dollar and I hand you back 50 cents. I would like to play this game with someone all day. With stocks there is no risk, given enough time. The average return over the life of the market is 12%. If you put money in every month for ten years, there is no risk of loosing, and totally certainty that you will earn between 5 and 15%. This is not gambling.

  As for as working for nothing, this is not quite true. The money that you "earned" is working for you and for the company you invest in. Labor and "working" capital are necessary in a personal and a business budget. By contrast, if you spent the money on some depreciable item like an expensive car, this is not laudible in my opinion.

  Just some stray thoughts on the subject.
• 

  Sam Beli

  Hi again Ros,

  No Watch Tower apologist here. Df¡¦g for gambling makes no sense as you point out so well. Do I buy lottery tickets? H*ll no, the odds are stacked a mile high against winning. My wife buys one occasionally ¡V there is a pool at work, and she has won a few bucks and I have not Df¡¦d her ƒº.

  I personally think that state lotteries are a bad idea. It is an unfair tax on the poor, mostly under-educated participants. Am I glad when some one wins big? Sure, but for every winner there are thousands of losers.

  Larc, your said: ¡§The average return over the life of the market is 12%. If you put money in every month for ten years, there is no risk of loosing, and totally certainty that you will earn between 5 and 15%. This is not gambling.¡¨

  Be careful with your terms. There is always ¡§risk¡¨ of loosing in the market as there is in any human endeavor. I think that the long term stock market returns are closer to 6 ¡V 8 %. Your figure was true for recent years, however, this year has brought things back to reality.

  Sam Beli

  I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted. Eccl 1:14, 15
• 

  larc

  Sam,

  The range I gave for a ten year period is lower than in recent years. I am talking about ten year averages over the history of the market.
• 

  crossroads

  Seems to me if you INVESTED in Bill Russell and the
  Boston Celtics for those ten years you would have made
  a lot more money than 12% more like 12000%. Talk about
  a sure thing. What of Koufax, Gibson, Palmer and Seaver
  in their hay days------yes they did lose games but over
  their 10 years of greatness if you invested the same every
  time they pitched, again your gain would be much more than
  12%.

  When my Dad started studing back in the early 70's he had
  a HUGH gambling problem. The Elder he studied with did
  the JW sufffle on the problem to get him to stop. Problem
  this most highly regarded elder had HUGE stock holdings.
  Dad never saw the difference at all he still dosen't. NOBODY
  buys stocks praying for it to go down. As for dividends and the
  long haul Invest in Sports. Nebraska will cover the 60 point
  spread, Duke will get to the sweet sixteen, Yankees and Atlanta
  will make the playoffs---------MICHAEL WILL HIT LAST SHOT!!!!!!