Alan F's flaming arguments and insults

by Rex 61 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    YECxy Rexy wrote:

    : Have you ever looked at the carved up mountains, hills and valleys?????

    Many times. Have you?

    : Have examined

    I see you're having trouble with English again. Perhaps you should take a remedial course.

    : the remarkable similarity to the Mount St. Helen's canyon that was carved our very quickly?

    There's no similarity in detail at all. Your claim is taken directly from the silly notions of Steve Austin and company of the YEC Institute for Creation Research. No real geologists take their claims seriously, because they're demonstrably wrong.

    Obviously you haven't trekked around in the mountains, hills and valleys, and seen any of this for yourself. Have you even been to the Mt. St. Helens devastated area? I have. It's comprised of thick layers of volcanic ash that were observably deposited very quickly, whereas sediments in places like the Grand Canyon were deposited over many tens of millions of years. And of course, there are many older ash layers from St. Helens and other Cascades volcanos all around the Pacific Northwest.

    For example, walking a trail in a little monument near Mt. Rainier called The Grove of the Patriarchs reveals a thick ash layer from a big eruption of Mt. Rainier from about 6,000 years ago, overlain by dirt, overlain by a thick ash layer from St. Helens from about 2,000 years ago, overlain by more dirt, etc. The Cascade volcanos have been erupting for millions of years, as can be seen by simply looking at the eroded state of some of them. Some, like Mt. Bachelor, and St. Helens until 1980, are fresh. Others, like Mt. Hood and Mt. Adams, have a significant amount of erosion, which takes a long time. Mt. Rainier is at least million years old, as can be seen by the severely eroded state of the mountains that partially ring it. Still others, like Mt. Washington in central Oregon, are eroded down to tall spires. The Cascade Mountains are clearly the result of many millions of years of volcanos popping up, spewing lava and ash for awhile, and then eroding down to nubs, whereupon new volcanos appear on top of the old remnants. Obviously, this demonstrably long sequence doesn't fit with YECism.

    A week ago I spent a day "digging dinosaurs" near Glen Rock, Wyoming, in the company of some staff of the little fossil museum called Paleon, which was started by paleontologist Robert Bakker a decade ago. I found a small handful of fossil bits of ancient animals, such as garfish scales, pieces of fish skulls, bits of crocodile and ceratopsian teeth (like Triceratops), and even a couple of raptor teeth. I dug through a matrix of soft and semi-hard rock to get at them. The matrix was clearly from a river environment, and the entire area contains a number pockets of fossils like this, which shows that they accumulated in calm river pools, and were later buried under layers of river flood deposits. The entire ensemble of deposits in the general region, including much of Wyoming, Montana and Colorado, was once nearly ten miles thick. The lowest layers are Jurassic (early dinosaur period) in age, with late Cretaceous (later and last dinosaur period) deposits exposed in Glen Rock. Exposures of every age can be found in the region.

    A few miles west of Denver is a little park where one can see ancient strata tipped up at about a 45 degree angle. Many of the layers contain dinosaur footprints. One can see that the strata containing these footprints are quite thick, so that there was a very long time period when dinosaurs walked through soft muck, which then dried and was buried, and the process repeated many times. This is perfectly understandable by normal geological principles, but impossible according to the self-styled Flood Geologists who claim there was a global flood a few thousand years ago. Why? Because the animals that left the footprints would have already been drowned, and there simply wasn't time for the dozens of observable layers containing footprints to dry up, be buried again, and for the process to repeat and repeat. Finally, it's not possible for such soft layers to turn to hard rock in just a few thousand years, then be tilted up at a steep angle, and finally for so much sediment to be removed from the Rocky Mountains as they rose up through the thick sedimentary layers.

    More on the YEC claim that the Grand Canyon of Arizona and Colorado formed during Noah's Flood: This is abject nonsense. One of many disproofs of their claim is that most of the unconformities between rock layers contain all sorts of land features, such as stream beds with their associated cobbles. These cobbles are just rounded boulders from the rock layers the stream flowed through. Now, it's obvious that rounded boulders are made of hard rock, and they can't form from soft sediments, because they first have to be yanked away from the larger matrix of rock (such as by weathering) and then have to be worn down as they tumble downstream. There's no way that they can form under a huge flood from the soft sediments being deposited. It's evidence like this, and massive amounts of it, that disprove a global Noah's flood.

    The point of all this is that it demonstrates conclusively that there was no global flood a few thousand years ago. Anyone who knows this evidence and ignores it is by definition braindead.

    : Catastrophism at it's finest.

    Fake science and quackery, you mean.

    : You are right about the uselessness of arguing, so why do you do it?

    Because there are lurkers who haven't yet had much exposure to real science, having been braindead JWs much of their lives. They need a dose of reality.

    : If I am so 'braindead' and 'foolish' then you don't have to say a thing, do you?

    Not for my sake.

    : Or, is the idea that the Great Intellectual Alan might just be wrongheaded and on the road to oblivion too much for you to stomach?

    LOL! The usual Fundy threat. You don't really think that scares most people on this board, do you?

    : Here is an example of your standard tactics when you meet someone that doesn't believe your world-view:

    That's among the most stupid things you've said. My comments have nothing to do with my "world-view" -- they have only to do with the demonstable fact that I presented actual evidence, whereas you presented nothing but nonsensical claptrap containing no evidence at all. I gave you a couple of prods to present evidence, but as usual with YECs, all you can manage is complaints about being called a spade. You simply ignored the evidence presented, and as I said, that's the definition of braindeadness.

    Readers who want to see the extent of Rexy's, um, mental handicap can look here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/95902/1.ashx

    : >Of course, being a braindead YEC, you don't recognize evidence when it goes against your presuppositions -- namely, that there was a global flood cuz the Bible sez so.

    Have you given any evidence that my characterization is wrong?

    : >The point is that I can either present a hell of a lot more evidence against a recent global flood, or I can refer any reader to massive tomes on the subject. But why waste bandwidth on morons?

    Have you given any evidence that you're not a moron, by actually given some real, live evidence for you claims?

    Let's note my challenge to you, which you also ignored, and for obvious reasons left out of this bit you pulled from my post:

    :: But since you seem to want to challenge knowledgeable people, you go right ahead and present any evidence your little heart desires, and let's see what happens?

    Note clearly the challenge to present evidence. I then said, with regard to this challenge:

    : >But I'm fairly sure that you're going to run away at this point.

    : Still here, bro!

    Physically, but not mentally. And as I said, since you failed to reply to that post, and have failed to give any evidence at all for your claims, my prediction was right. You've run away from presenting any evidence.

    Such is the brain damage that YECism produces.

    AlanF

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Hello Everyone,
    I was originally Worldly Witness and I turned into 'Shining One'. I posted as 'Rex' because I thought my password and identity were lost. I recently found my old online stuff...I was last here as a regular five years ago. I am no geologist nor do I pretend to be. I will post information that attempts to cast doubts on any naturalist theories that suits my fancy. If you don't like it, tough!
    No one can prove the events of the Bible are positively true. However, it is also my contention that 'scientists' have not proven much of anything that brings the infallibility of scripture into serious question. I do not have to defend any or all beliefs associated with the Bible. I will pick and choose what I defend or retreat from. I also do not contend that there is a valid explanation for every apparent contradiction (it is often misinterpreted) in the Bible.
    Don't be arrogant or condescending or I will simply not respond to you anymore. Unlike some here, I don't live my life to have endless debates on subjects that will never find us in agreement. I take scripture and the interpretation of it seriously. If you want an honest and beneficial discussion of scripture I am happy to oblige.
    You don't know my position on various subjects so please don't label me without a thorough understanding of where I am coming from. Violations of forum rules 1 & 3 are not appreciated at all. I don't play by anyone's rules except those of this forum.

    Shining One

  • AllAlongTheWatchtower
    AllAlongTheWatchtower

    Rex; even some christians/creationists are unsure on the details of the flood, though all creationists believe in the bible, some believe that the flood was only a local phenomenon. Can't you admit even the possibility of an error, when your own camp is divided? By the way, there is actually biblical reason to doubt the flood was a global event. I've been an atheist too long to quote you chapter and verse, but I'm sure others can point you in the right direction if you're not familiar with it yourself.

    There's 2 relevant passages in the bible that come to mind: 1) A verse in the old testament, (I think, might be Daniel) that says something about a tree that cast a shadow across the whole world-given a spherical planet, that is impossible. It would only be possible to a people with a flat-world mentality and knowledge base. Which proves at the very least, that they and the writer(s) were not even aware of what comprised the whole world. A similar verse in the new testament refers to Satan taking christ to the top of a high mountain, to tempt him by showing him all the kingdoms of the world, and offering them to him to rule if he would switch sides. Surely you can see that even from Everest, one cannot see the Aztec empires of South America. Once again, we run into the problem of flatworld thought versus roundworld reality. Seeing and realizing this, some christians adopt the 'partial flood' stance; believing that only the known world surrounding the mediterranean sea was flooded, as to the people of that time period that WAS the 'whole world'.

    Even with that compromise view, the creationist camp runs into problems, because a partial flood wouldn't cover all the mountains...but thats a different argument for another thread, and has been hashed over before.

  • IW
    IW


    Rex, uhh...shining one, uhh isn't that the name of the devil?

    What you see here is the mind of a very intelligent man. He is what he is and it's best you let lay buddy.

    Alan knows that of which he speaks otherwise he would not speak at all.

    Must be nice. Hey it must be nice to be the shining one too. lol

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Give it up Alan. Just admit the earth was created in 607 BCE.

    B.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    I rest my case.

    AlanF

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Good job on the interpetation of 'Shining One' and thanks for the serious comments, TW. I just like the name as translated in some Bibles. Our Lord quoted the text from Isaiah.

    I freely admit that the "camp is divided" on many issues involving inerrancy and infallibility of scripture as well as the questioned events, being actual or allegorical. Yes, the Bible has been written by and for the man who existed in the various ages 2000 years and many more years ago. But it soesn't end there, it applies to so much of today that it is uncanny and goes beyong coincidence.....

    You can observe the sacrifical laws and allusions to Christ frequently in the text of the Old Testament. So many ancient religions expected a messianic figure and lo and behold, He arrived at the time in history that would forever change the course of humanity. You must go beyond the text and look deeper instead of prattling about details (if you have to ask, "Who did Cain marry", you've missed the point of scripture). Get to the spiritual core and you will find the God/man there.
    He is there and prophecied of at the fall of man, in the sacrificial system, (Noah's ark is a 'type' of Christ!) in Joseph, Isaac and David. He fulfilled the prophecies as the 'man of sorrows' of Isaiah 53. He lived and died by eyewitness testimony and He is risen even now! We can look back at the cross and realize that in Him we do not have to be 'good enough', in fact, we cannot be 'good enough' to save ourselves. His righteousness is more than enough to all who would believe and accept the free gift of etnernal bliss.
    No man can ever demand we perform up to his standard to find the way of life that gives us joy. The personhood of Jesus fills that hole in our hearts that lust, greed and avarice can never fill. We are accountable to no one when we are in Christ.

    Go ahead, call out to Him and tell him that you do not believe and you need to see and hear from Him. I did so, He showed me and He keeps showing me all of the time!

    Shining One

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Shining, like a candle in the wind ...

    S

  • confusedjw
    confusedjw

    I like it when AlanF calls Scholar funny names. It's usually by the 3rd post.

    Call me a name Alan! (but it can't be Yankee-lover or else I'll call you something like Creationist-lover)

  • Quotes
    Quotes

    It is interesting how AlanF always replies to Rex/Shinging One in a methodical, point-by-point manner (quoting snippets to aid the reader), but Rex/Shinging One replies with broad generalizations and never bothers to address specific points AlanF raised.

    Shinging One, do you believe in other branches of science? Are you a total Luddite? Or a narrow-range specific Luddite, refusing to believe only one branch of science? Actually, I misspoke: many, many branches of scientific query support and validate evolution: geology, biology, palentology, etc.?

    BTW, why do pepole like AlanF get so passionate about this issue? Because ignoring a valid scientific hypothesis, and substituting complete and utter garbage (i.e. YEC) is the first slip on a slippery slope that ends with society back in the Dark Ages -- when religion ruled the world. Now, maybe you like the Dark Ages, well you're welcome to it, just don't drag down the rest of society to your pit of dung. Personally, I'll keep my transistor electronics (i.e. applied Quantum theory) and my modern medicine (i.e. applied biology theory) and all the other things than we have thanks to the objective rationalism of the Scientific Method.

    ~Quotes, of the "Post Enlightenment" class

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