Many many books from library on 586/87

by ithinkisee 129 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Your attempt to harmonize the different chronological data in Daniel 1:1 and Jeremiah 25:1 is a joke. You already have admitted that tthese statements are not of the same historical event but you believe that these occurred in the same year because of th accession and non-accession year system used by Jeremiah and Daniel. However there is a big problem with this argument which remains such even to this very day. Although in principle Bible writers used this system for chronological purposes its application today is not fully understood and universaly applied.

    There is no big problem. Daniel lived in Babylon. Daniel was taught in the ways of Babylon. Babylon used the accession-year system. Therefore the most logical answer is that Daniel used the accession-year system.

    Scholars such as Edwin Thiele certainly recognized the principle or method but scholars like Thiele disagree as to the method of application. For example, there is no consistency of its use during the Divided Monarchy with the kings but it varied for the kings of Judah and Israel and varied at different times during the overall period. The apparent lack of uniformity in its application renders its use in the modern day setting extremely vexatious. For this reason celebrated WT scholars have chosen rather than a reganl based approach but rather the more practical-event based methodology for this removes to some extent the varaibility of the accession and non-paccession principle.

    Regardless of the variant use in Israel during the period of the DM, there is very strong reason to suggest that Daniel used the accession-year system. To suggest doubt about which system was used during other periods of the DM is a red herring.

    Point number two is that Daniel did not use the word reign but kingship as properly translated so the interpretation of the third year is shifted from a regnal year to an historic event in the course of his reign of which was in fact a kingship as a vassal to Necho and Nebuchadnezzer.

    Daniel didn't speak English. He didn't say 'reign' or 'kingship'. There is no distinction in the Hebrew word used. The two English words mean the same thing.

    1. Different history

    Only different in the warped minds of the Society law-makers

    2. Inconsistent methodology

    No inconsistency has been identified.

    3. Diferent Hebrew term as kingship rather than reign

    Both words mean the same thing. It is the same original Hebrew term. The Society does not always translate the term as 'kingship'.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    I did not say that Daniel used either the accession year or non-accession calendrical system. What I am saying is that is somewhat problematic in basing an argument on a comparison between Daniel 1:1 and Jeremiah 25:1 when we today are unsure how those methodologies were used by Daniel and Jeremiah.

    The fact is that the Hebrew word in Daniel 1:1 refers to kingship and not reign even though these Hebrew words are similar in meaning having come from the same root form. Therefore any argument based on the fact that it is the third year of his reign is misleading and does not accord with Josephus and Jewish tradition.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    The fact is that the Hebrew word in Daniel 1:1 refers to kingship and not reign even though these Hebrew words are similar in meaning having come from the same root form. Therefore any argument based on the fact that it is the third year of his reign is misleading and does not accord with Josephus and Jewish tradition.

    You really are a pain. The word in question means 'dominion', 'kingdom', 'kingship', 'realm', 'reign', 'royal power'. The word used at Daniel 1:1 is not at all distinct in meaning from that, and your previous statement that the word implies a special event during the reign has absolutely no basis in fact. Your suggestion that "the Hebrew word in Daniel 1:1 refers to kingship and not reign" is simply a lie - it is the same word. The root form (Strong's 4427 - 'malak') of the word means 'to be (or become) king'.

    The same Hebrew word that is translated as 'kingship' ('malkuth', Strong's 4338) at Daniel 1:1 (NWT) is found in the following NWT verses and is translated variously as follows:

    "Becoming king"
    Jeremiah 52:31

    "Kingdom"
    Numbers 24:7, 2 Chronicles 36:22, Nehemiah 9:35, Esther 1:4, Esther 1:14, Daniel 8:23, Daniel 9:1, Daniel 11:2, Daniel 11:4 (twice), Daniel 11:9, Daniel 11:17, Daniel 11:20, Daniel 11:21 (twice)

    "Kingdoms"
    Daniel 8:22

    "Kingship"
    Esther 5:3, Esther 5:6, 1 Samuel 20:31, 1 Kings 2:12, 1 Chronicles 11:10, 1 Chronicles 12:23, 1 Chronicles 14:2, 1 Chronicles 17:11, 1 Chronicles 17:14, 1 Chronicles 22:10, 1 Chronicles 26:31, 1 Chronicles 28:5, 1 Chronicles 28:7, 1 Chronicles 29:30, 2 Chronicles 1:1, 2 Chronicles 2:1, 2 Chronicles 2:12, 2 Chronicles 7:18, 2 Chronicles 11:17, 2 Chronicles 12:1, 2 Chronicles 33:13, Esther 7:2, Nehemiah 12:22, Psalm 45:6, Psalm 103:19, Psalm 145:11, Psalm 145:12, Psalm 145:13 (twice), Ecclesiastes 4:14, Jeremiah 49:34, Daniel 1:1, Daniel 2:1, Daniel 8:1

    "Kingships"
    Jeremiah 10:7

    "Realm"
    Ezra 1:1, Esther 1:20, Esther 2:3, Esther 3:6, Esther 3:8, Esther 9:30

    "Reign"
    2 Chronicles 3:2, 2 Chronicles 15:10, 2 Chronicles 15:19, 2 Chronicles 16:1, 2 Chronicles 16:12, 2 Chronicles 29:19, 2 Chronicles 35:19, Ezra 4:5, Ezra 4:6, Ezra 7:1, Ezra 8:1

    "Reign" once, "Royal" once
    Esther 2:16

    "Royal"
    1 Chronicles 29:25, Esther 1:7, Esther 1:9, Esther 1:11, Esther 1:19, Esther 6:8 (twice), Esther 8:15, Esther 2:17

    "Royal" (twice) and "Royally"
    Esther 5:1

    "Royalty"
    2 Chronicles 36:20

    "Royal dignity"
    Esther 4:14

    "Royal realm"
    2 Chronicles 20:30, Daniel 1:20, Daniel 10:13

    "Royal throne"
    Esther 1:2

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Your list showing the range of meanings for malkut proves my point that this word does not mean reign as a chronological datum specifically. The word kingshp as do all of the others describe the nature of the reign other than that of length or duration. What in fact was the nature of Jehoiakim's reign? Is it not the case that Hehoiakim's reign was of vassalage to Egypt under Necho and Babylon under Nebuchadnezzer?

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    You are clutching at straws. All of the uses of the Hebrew word carry the sense of 'the period during which one reigns'. The various uses do not 'prove your point' at all. There is simply nothing in the verse to suggest that it refers to anything other time than from when he started to rule, and there is no reason why any person from Daniel's time would understand it as ruling relative to Nebuchadnezzar.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    The facts of the matter is that the NWT has determined that the word 'kingship' conveys the Hebrew word more accurately than the popular 'reign' which is historically and biblically naiive. Many commentaries including the Jewish recognize this fact that the 'third year' is not used chronologically in the usual sense. If there is some problem or issue with a verse then it is the wise to be cautious and open-minded for Daniel 1:1 is the most controversal verse chronologically speaking within scholarship. The very fact that Daniel does not synchronize a year of Nebuchadnezzer with that of Jehoiakim's 'third year' as did Jeremiah did with 25:1 is pause for thought and great concern.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    The very fact that Daniel does not synchronize a year of Nebuchadnezzer with that of Jehoiakim's 'third year' as did Jeremiah did with 25:1 is pause for thought and great concern.

    Daniel would not give a year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign if he was in his accession year. Daniel is in complete agreement with Jeremiah 25:1.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Impossible, because in the third regnal year of Jehoiakim, Nebuchadnezzer was not king of Babylon but merely the Crown Prince so his accession year had not yet begun because his father Nabopolassar had then not yet died.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Impossible, because in the third regnal year of Jehoiakim, Nebuchadnezzer was not king of Babylon but merely the Crown Prince so his accession year had not yet begun because his father Nabopolassar had then not yet died.

    Your statement is simply and demonstrably wrong. Daniel used the accession-year system. Using the accession-year system, Nebuchadnezzar's accession (zeroth) year is equal to Jehoiakim's third year, because Jehoiakim's accession year would not have been counted by Daniel. This agrees with Jeremiah stating that Nebuchadnezzar's first year is Jehoiakim's fourth year.

    Jehoiakim Nebuchadnezzar

    Daniel: accession
    year 1st 2nd 3rd
    accession year
    |----------|----------|----------|
    Jeremiah: 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
    1st

    For a scholar, you don't seem to follow the accession-year system very well.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    For a scholar, you don't seem to follow the accession-year system very well.

    Oh, he`s not just a "scholar", he`s a "celebrated WT-scholar".

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