Duns, et al, Free Will Vs. Determinism

by larc 58 Replies latest jw friends

  • Deacon
    Deacon

    Dunny the Scot's subliminal psywar campaigns require a two-part response: first, a clarification of the prognosis implied by my previous posts; and second, a commentary on Dunny's own prognoses. You see, I undoubtedly believe that Dunny's particular brand of unenlightened irreligionism will prevent me from getting my work done quicker than you can double-check the spelling of "parasympathomimetic".

    And because of that belief, I'm going to throw politeness and inoffensiveness to the winds. In this letter, I'm going to be as rude and crude as I know how, to reinforce the point that you should never forget the three most important facets of his refrains, namely their hidebound origins, their internal contradictions, and their tendentious nature. Note that even when he isn't lying, he's using facts, emphasizing facts, bearing down on facts, sliding off facts, quietly ignoring facts, and, above all, interpreting facts in a way that will enable him to mock, ridicule, deprecate, and rebuke people for their religious beliefs. Let's be frank: If Dunny got his way, he'd be able to excoriate attempts to bring questions of factionalism into the (essentially apolitical) realm of pedagogy in language and writing. Brrrr! It sends chills down my spine just thinking about that. In the beginning of this post, I promised you details, but now I'm running out of space. So here's one detail to end with: I would unequivocally be surprised if Dunny the Scot stopped to communicate and share ideas with even one of the people he regularly attacks.

  • larc
    larc

    Duns,

    Whether schizophrenia, autism, and sociapathy are primarily genetic or enviornmental is beside the point. Both genetics and environment or their combination cause conditions that greatly reduce the free will of those affilicted with these disturbances. Thus, free will can not be complete. It is limited, if it exists at all.

    When I discussed language formation, I was not discussing the prewired state of the brain that allows humans to learn language easily (John Locke was wrong, re: tabla rosa). I was referring to the ease of learning a specific language in a specific culture. This ease of learning in the child applies not only to language formation but also to a myriad of specific cultural traits as well, and places many limits on the adult in terms of free will.

    When you ask how can we "do" science, it is because the conditions were put in place that allowed the person to have the prerequisite skills, interests, and opportunity to "do" science. It is the same reason that some people can "do" music or any other complex human endevear.

    Regarding the concept of self-transendence as seen by therapists, you would have to define self-transendence. You also have to remember that therapists who resort to such terms are not scientists. They are practicioners. Because they use such a word, does not mean that is valid or has meaning as a construct. (Did Keohler's experiments with chimps and insight learning indicate that they had self-transendence?)

    You mentioned that all the variables are not known in order to make precise predictions. That is axiomatic. It does not mean that the theory of determinism is incorrect. Operating from this theorectical perspective has advanced an understanding of human behavior far more than the theory of free will.

    By the way, when you wrote meta science, I think you meant meta psychology.

  • larc
    larc

    Duns,

    I forgot to address your second post.

    Is it possible to be proactive? Of course. Does this imply free will. I don't think so. To the degree that a person has the intellectual ability to forcaste future conditions based on trends and weigh information as to possible future outcomes, they have the ability to decide to take a certain course of action in order to change the trends that are in place. Decision theory would indicate that two people with the same information who put the same weight on that information would make the same decision. For a further understanding of this, you should look at Von Neuman's work on Game Theory, especially, the prisoner's dilemna.

    Regarding therapists who believe in free will and how they justify it: I don't know. You would have to ask them.

  • larc
    larc

    Deacon,

    Does your post have something to do with a different thread? I don't grasp the meaning of what you are writing within the context of this thread.

    Since you have stated in another discussion that you have some experience in the behavioral sciences, perhaps you could share your opinion of what is being discussed here. In particular, what do think are the causes of schizophrenia and the creation of sociopaths. Have you ever worked with them?

  • larc
    larc

    Duns,

    I have been up very late, so I might not be back for awhile.

    Here are some specific areas of research that domeonstrate the limits on our free will.

    1. Stanley Milgram's studies on obedience to authority.

    2. Sheriff's studies on the creation and the reduction of conflict between groups.

    3. Solomon Asch's study on conforminty.

    4. B.F. Skinner's work on the effects of schedules of reinforcement on behavior.

    5. Zimbardo's work on the effects of a person's assigned role on behavior.

    6. Sheriff's experiment on the effect of feedback from another person on a person's decisions.

    7. The whole area of Attribution Thery and how our judgements of ourselves and others are affected by the way we attribute the causation of behavior.

    8. Irving Janis's work on the effects of group cohesiveness on individual behavior.

    Duns, it is truely humbling when you read this body of work. We are not as free as we think we are.

  • larc
    larc

    Duns,

    I brought this back up to the top of the board for your review and consideration.

  • dunsscot
    dunsscot

    Dear larc:

    :Duns,

    Whether schizophrenia, autism, and sociapathy are primarily genetic or enviornmental is beside the point. Both genetics and environment or their combination cause conditions that greatly reduce the free will of those affilicted with these disturbances. Thus, free will can not be complete. It is limited, if it exists at all.:

    I think we have to delineate what we mean by free will before we determine whether we have it or not. If we are going to define free will in terms of no or practically no limitations, then we are not free. But most thinkers that I have read do not define free will in this highly restrictive sense. I sure do not mean that we are volitionally unlimited when I employ the term "free will."

    :When I discussed language formation, I was not discussing the prewired state of the brain that allows humans to learn language easily (John Locke was wrong, re: tabla rosa). I was referring to the ease of learning a specific language in a specific culture. This ease of learning in the child applies not only to language formation but also to a myriad of specific cultural traits as well, and places many limits on the adult in terms of free will.:

    How does the ability to learn a specific language in a specific culture put free will in jeopardy? Is not the acquisition of a specific language the result of an interaction between innate factors and environmental ones? Are you utilizing Skinner's explanation of language acquisition to argue against free will? Furthermore, what do you do with those individuals who possess particular differentiae that could not be a direct result of the culture they live in? How do you explain the so-called "invulnerables"?

    :Regarding the concept of self-transendence as seen by therapists, you would have to define self-transendence. You also have to remember that therapists who resort to such terms are not scientists. They are practicioners. Because they use such a word, does not mean that is valid or has meaning as a construct. (Did Keohler's experiments with chimps and insight learning indicate that they had self-transendence?):

    To avoid confusion, let us use the term self-awareness or self-consciousness. Theologians and some therapists use the terminology, self-transcendence. But that way of wording matters may result in unnecessary confusion. So let us just talk about self-awareness. This is what Richard Restak (M.D.) calls it. But when I speak of self-awareness, I am talking about the ability to have a sense of self or the ability to reflect on one's thoughts (the capacity of thought to think itself). As Covey writes:

    "Now think for a minute about how your mind is working? Is it quick or alert? Do you sense that you are torn between doing this mental exercise and evaluating the point to be made out of it? Your ability to do what you just did is uniquely human. Animals do not possess this ability. We call it 'self-awareness' or the ability to think about your thought process" (Covey, 66).

    He also gives the example of Victor Frankl, who at one time was a strict determinist, but then eventually realized "Between stimulus and response, man has the freedom to choose" (70).

    :You mentioned that all the variables are not known in order to make precise predictions. That is axiomatic. It does not mean that the theory of determinism is incorrect. Operating from this theorectical perspective has advanced an understanding of human behavior far more than the theory of free will.:

    The theory of determinism has been called into question by more than one scientist. It has its advantages, no doubt about it. But it also has deficiencies. You must also remember that determinists start with certain assumptions and are not impartial observers. Determinism cannot account for the whole of our experience adequately. A few years ago, I read a book by a therapist who said he used to be a determinist until he noticed he was having difficulty helping some of his patients with the deterministic model. He then began to take human self-awareness into account and thought this approach netted greater therapeutic gains.

    By the way, when you wrote meta science, I think you meant meta psychology.:

    No, I meant metascience. See the works by Gerard Radnitzsky.

  • trevor
    trevor

    This has been an interesting thread. I have only just caught up with it becauce I have just returned from four days in Amsterdam.
    I am not responsible for my actions while out there. I am a victim of my genetical and cultural heritage - a willing victim.

    I did take my wife with me - well - someone had to help me back to the hotel.

  • dunsscot
    dunsscot

    Larc,

    I think what physicist Frank J. Tipler has to say about freedom, God, and immortality in connection with science is of interest:

    On page 7 of The Physics of Immortality, Tipler reminds us that the German thinker Immanuel Kant (in the Preface to the Second Edition and in the Introduction of the Critique of Pure Reason) "declared science forever incapable of solving the three fundamental problems of metaphysics: God, freedom, and immortality; that is, Kant contended that physics can never determine if God exists, if we have free will, or if God will grant us immortal life."

    Tipler, however, takes issue with Kant's three postulates of reason. He thinks that these three "problems of metaphysics" can be answered by science. The only problem is that the answer to all three metaphysical questions "are probably He [God] does exist, probably we have free will, and probably He will grant us eternal life after we have died."

    Tipler says "probably," since "science is not in the business of giving an absolutely certain-to-be-true answer, valid for all time. Science can only give 'probably true' answers, as witness the fate of the geocentric hypothesis of Ptolemy, discussed above."

    What do you think about Tipler's observations on the matter of freedom and so forth?

    Duns the Scot

    "Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

  • dunsscot
    dunsscot

    Here you go, larc. Bringing it to the top.

    Duns the Scot

    "Nobody is taller than himself or herself."

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit