Does anyone know?

by Honesty 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    Biblicaly speaking, what, how and why is a sheep and goat different?

    The WTBTS has some interesting comments but they still don't describe the why, how or what of the matter. They also twist the scripture proofs they provide as evidenced below:

    *** it-1 966 Goat ***
    Goats were used to represent people, often those in opposition to Jehovah
    . (Isa 34:6, 7; compare Jer 51:40; Eze 34:17; Zec 10:3.) In Jesus’ illustration of the sheep and the goats, the goats represent those persons who refuse to do good to the least of his brothers.-Mt 25:31-46.

    *** Rbi8 Isaiah 34:6-8 ***
    6 Jehovah has a sword; it must be filled with blood; it must be made greasy with the fat, with the blood of young rams and he-goats
    , with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For Jehovah has a sacrifice in Boz'rah, and a great slaughtering in the land of E'dom. 7 And the wild bulls must come down with them, and young bulls with the powerful ones; and their land must be drenched with blood, and their very dust will be made greasy with the fat.”
    8 For Jehovah has a day of vengeance, a year of retributions for the legal case over Zion.

    *** Rbi8 Jeremiah 51:40 ***40 “I shall bring them down like male sheep to the slaughtering, like rams along with the he-goats.”

    *** Rbi8 Ezekiel 34:17 ***17 “‘And as for YOU my sheep, this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Here I am judging between a sheep and a sheep, between the rams and the he-goats.

    *** Rbi8 Zechariah 10:3 ***3 “Against the shepherds my anger has grown hot, and against the goatlike leaders I shall hold an accounting; for Jehovah of armies has turned his attention to his drove, the house of Judah, and has made them like his horse of dignity in the battle

    *** w95 2/15 8 There Will Be a Resurrection of the Righteous *** It was realized that these obedient ones were to be distinguished from the stubborn “goats,” and after the destruction of the latter ones, the sheep would inherit the earthly realm of the Kingdom that had been prepared for them.

    *** w95 10/15 25-6 What Future for the Sheep and the Goats? ***Who Are the Sheep and the Goats?
    7 We read concerning the judging of the sheep: “[Jesus] will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; naked, and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?’ And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”-Matthew 25:34-40.
    8 Obviously, the sheep judged worthy of being on Jesus’ right side of honor and favor represent a class of humans. (Ephesians 1:20; Hebrews 1:3) What did they do and when? Jesus says that they kindly, respectfully, and generously gave him food, drink, and clothing, aiding him when he was sick or in prison. When the sheep say that they had not done this to Jesus personally, he points out that they did support his spiritual brothers, the remnant of anointed Christians, so in that sense they did it to him.
    9 The parable does not apply during the Millennium, for the anointed will not then be humans suffering hunger, thirst, sickness, or imprisonment. Many of them, though, have experienced such during the conclusion of this system of things. Ever since Satan was cast down to earth, he has made the remnant a special object of his fury, bringing on them ridicule, torture, and death.-Revelation 12:17.
    10 Is Jesus saying that everyone doing a small kindness to one of his brothers, such as offering a piece of bread or a glass of water, qualifies as one of these sheep? Granted, rendering such kindnesses may reflect human kindness, but really, it seems that much more is involved with the sheep of this parable. Jesus was hardly referring, for example, to atheists or clergymen who happen to do a kind act to one of his brothers. On the contrary, Jesus twice called the sheep “righteous ones.” (Matthew 25:37, 46) So the sheep must be ones who over a period of time have come to the aid of-actively supporting-Christ’s brothers and have exercised faith to the extent of receiving a righteous standing before God.11 Over the centuries, many such as Abraham have enjoyed a righteous standing. (James 2:21-23) Noah, Abraham, and other faithful ones count among the “other sheep” who will inherit life in Paradise under God’s Kingdom. In recent times millions more have taken up true worship as other sheep and have become “one flock” with the anointed. (John 10:16; Revelation 7:9) These with earthly hopes recognize Jesus’ brothers as ambassadors of the Kingdom and have therefore aided them-literally and spiritually. Jesus counts as done to him what the other sheep do for his brothers on earth. Such ones who are alive when he comes to judge the nations will be judged as sheep.
    12 If the other sheep are now preaching the good news with the anointed and aiding them, why would they ask: “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink?” (Matthew 25:37) There could be various reasons. This is a parable. By means of it, Jesus shows his deep concern for his spiritual brothers; he feels with them, suffers with them. Jesus had earlier said: “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matthew 10:40) In this illustration, Jesus extends the principle, showing that what is done (good or bad) to his brothers reaches even into heaven; it is as if it is done to him in heaven. Also, Jesus here emphasizes Jehovah’s standard for judging, making it clear that God’s judgment, whether favorable or condemnatory, is valid and just. The goats cannot offer the excuse, ‘Well, if only we had seen you directly.’
    13 Once we appreciate when it is that the judgment shown in this parable is rendered, we get a clearer view of who the goats are. The fulfillment is when “the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming . . . with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:29, 30) Survivors of the tribulation on Babylon the Great who have treated the King’s brothers despitefully may now desperately address the Judge as “Lord,” hoping to save their lives.-Matthew 7:22, 23; compare Revelation 6:15-17.
    14 However, Jesus’ judgment will not be based on desperate claims from former churchgoers, atheists, or others. (2 Thessalonians 1:8) Instead, the judge will review the heart condition and past actions of people toward even “one of these least ones [of his brothers].” Admittedly, the number of anointed Christians left on earth is declining. However, as long as the anointed, making up “the faithful and discreet slave,” continue to provide spiritual food and direction, prospective sheep have an opportunity to do good to the slave class, just as the ‘great crowd out of all nations and tribes and peoples’ have done.-Revelation 7:9, 14.
    15 How have Christ’s brothers and the millions of other sheep united with them as one flock been treated? Many people may not personally have attacked Christ’s representatives, but neither have they treated his people lovingly. Preferring the wicked world, goatlike ones reject the Kingdom message, whether hearing it directly or indirectly. (1 John 2:15-17) Of course, in the final analysis, Jesus is the one who is appointed to render judgment. It is not for us to determine who are sheep and who are goats.-Mark 2:8; Luke 5:22; John 2:24, 25; Romans 14:10-12; 1 Corinthians 4:5.

    Jesus spoke of His sheep many times and left us clues as to their differences:

    *** Rbi8 John 10:1-6 ***
    10 “Most truly I say to YOU, He that does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs up some other place, that one is a thief and a plunderer. 2 But he that enters through the door is shepherd of the sheep. 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has got all his own out, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will by no means follow but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus spoke this comparison to them; but they did not know what the things meant that he was speaking to them.

    *** Rbi8 John 10:7-15 ***7 Therefore Jesus said again: “Most truly I say to YOU, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All those that have come in place of me are thieves and plunderers; but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage. 10 The thief does not come unless it is to steal and slay and destroy. I have come that they might have life and might have it in abundance. 11 I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep. 12 The hired man, who is no shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees—and the wolf snatches them and scatters them— 13 because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep. 14 I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.

    *** Rbi8 John 10:26-27 *** But YOU do not believe, because YOU are none of my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

    If you have ever observed the two animals it is easy to see the difference. Both sheep and goats are herd animals and therefore are very stubborn just like cattle. Sheep know their master and listen only to his voice but goats will listen to the voice of anyone who will feed them.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Eh...I really have no clue on this, but here is my theory: The ancient Israelites were sheep-herders. Their livestock was mainly sheeps and goats, so it`s only normal that such a peoples mythology would evolve around these animals. Everyone that knows anything about these animals, knows that the goat, especially the males, are much more stubborn than sheep (I`m no expert, but I grew up on a farm until I was 6, and my older sister and her husband has a farm). When trying to make a sheep or a goat walk, it`s impossible to do this by pulling it by the neck. (These animals are really strong, by the way, you couldn`t pull a fullgrown sheep with you if your life depended on it). The only way to make a sheep walk, is by pushing it (from behind), not pulling it. With goats, that won`t usually work either, they`ll only walk when they feel like it. So the goat would perhaps be seen as an animal "in opposition" (like men that were in opposition to God), while sheeps were more willing to follow the will of it`s master (like good, religious jews?). This is just my personal rambling, you won`t find this in any books...

    However, there`s another thing about sheeps and goats and stuff I find intriguing. The ancient Israelites had the custom of once a year, to (symbolically) "lay all the sins of the tribe" on a sheep or goat, and chase it out into the wilderness (god, ancient people were really, really stupid ). So, by doing this, the tribe was cleansed of its sins for another year. Anyway, when Jesus died on the cross, christianity says that he died as an offering for "the sins of all mankind". Sounds familiar? Was the whole "offering" of Christ based on an old Israelite custom?

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    The "sheep" are supposed to listen to Jesus' voice. But the governing body of the Watchtower Society pretends it is that voice. The BIG LIE!

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    doesn't nature teach you ?

    in the council chamber of her own soul she saw mighty advocates -- nature, family, parental love........

    I believe hellrider is on the right track - biblical conversation is about the language of the earth and of the world

    -----------------------------------------------

    • And he answered, "It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith!......
    • For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, `Go,' and he goes, and to another, `Come,' and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, "Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.

    ------------------------------------------------

    Goats eat and eat, and they eat the sheeps food too - they also like to climb high and look down, and often live up on the mountains, eating all sorts; those with horns will ringbark a tree, loosing their own shade - there are lots of things about goats

    Want to understand scripture ? Ask farmers, read a book, look at pictures (not propaganda)

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    As I understand it, sheep are very stupid animals that need to have everything done for them and guided everywhere or they will get into trouble. Goats on the other hand are intelligent, very willful and difficult to guide or control.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Are you sure ? Ever had sheep, or goats ?

  • MerryMagdalene
    MerryMagdalene

    Not that this has anything to do with anything, and I've never "had" sheep or goats, but I have taken care of them for people who did, and I have to say, I preferred the goats.

    Maybe the sheep did listen to the one who owned them (I don't know) but they didn't listen to me worth a damn, they totally ignored me when I tried to shepherd them from pasture to river and back again and seemed totally lost in their own little worlds.

    The goats on the other hand (LOL) were very amusing and very curious about me. They would follow me about, rub against me, try to headbutt me, and rather affectionate and playful. That's just my experience.

    ~Merry

  • twinkletoes
    twinkletoes

    Interesting point.

    I have first hand experience of goats, I kept goats for about 13 years, milking them each day. They are very strong willed and independant, but great personalities. where-as our next door neighbour sometimes has sheep on his land, and one of them lay down on a slope in the field and couldn't get up again, the next morning he found it dead - they don't seem to be able to work out anything themselves ! I certainly cannot image the goat just lying there. Maybe there is a moral to this (true) story after-all

    Twinkletoes

  • blondie
    blondie

    What is the difference between sheep and goats?

    • Sheep have fleece, goats hair
    • Goats have horns, many sheep are naturally hornless
    • Goats are smarter than sheep
    • Sheep are more likely to overeat than goats
    • Sheep graze, goats browse
    • Sheep are more skittish around people than goats unless given plenty of handling at a young age

    Goats are never content with what they have.

    They are experts in opening gates and squeezing through small gaps because they hate to be confined. Fences that will handle sheep, cattle, and horses will not hold goats. They will work tirelessly to spring themselves from any situation they deem inhibiting.

    Consequently, goats are not very good followers. "Gregarious behavior" is a term that refers to the flocking or herding instinct which is found strongly in sheep, cattle, and horses. Again, this quality is rather weak in goats; they prefer leading or going off on their own.

  • daystar
    daystar

    Blondie

    That spells it out now, doesn't it? It seems to me that much of the biblical description of Jesus would make him a goat rather than a sheep.

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