Terry, Leolani: your flat-earth lie is debunked..

Shining One

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/98216/1692264/post.ashx#1692264

Go here then you will find the link. Enjoy the read.
Rex

Shining One

http://tektonics.org/af/earthshape.html

No chance of you missing it now!
Rex

DevonMcBride

Shining One,

Are you serious about that link? Do you honestly think JP Holding is an honest person, with credentials?

From this link http://members.aol.com/bbu85/hold.htm

A Christian apologist named Robert Turkel, who goes by the name "J.P. Holding" online, maintains a web site called Tekton Apologetic Ministries. Turkel's site contains a large number of essays in which he insults Bible skeptics and attempts to attack their positions. Turkel actually had a page devoted to deceased Bible skeptics entitled Rogue's Cemetery. Very tasteful.

Curiously, Turkel seems to have a great deal of trouble actually providing links to the articles upon which he heaps his scorn, which makes for a bizarre website. In his "Rogue's Gallery" section, he mainly appears to be fighting an army of foes that only he can see. How hard is it to make a link, anyway? Why is it so incredibly difficult for Turkel, who earned a Master's degree in Library Science and who has worked for many years as a reference librarian, to simply paste in a URL? Actions speak much louder than words and clearly the problem here is that Turkel is terrified of what skeptics write. Of course he does link to some skeptic's articles and to some debate responses, but this behavior is the exception rather than the rule. His "explanation" for why he links to Christian articles but does not link to most of the skeptical articles that he attacks is that these latter articles can be found using search engines!

The folks at the Secular Web are familar with Turkel's modus operandi:

"...he avoids linking to or even naming the essays he rebuts, and usually avoids so much as naming the author he is attacking. He also routinely changes his essays after being refuted, yet rarely announces the changes or concessions in any way, and he also employs childish insults and other rudeness."

(To see the full quotation above, Go here.)

Some other details about this apologist:

He is a demonstrated liar. He will simply make things up in order to explain away Bible problems.
He uses fraud and deceit to promote his religious beliefs, yet he constantly accuses skeptics of being dishonest. Psychiatrists refer to this type of behavior as "projection." Other people call it "hypocrisy."
Despite biblical admonitions against the sin of pride, Turkel brags constantly and with great enthusiasm about what he perceives is his thorough dismantling of skeptical arguments. He often uses very violent imagery to describe the destruction he assumes he is wreaking. Indeed, he believes that he is a "warrior" in a holy war for God, that God is actually working through him and his web site. In a plea for cash to support his efforts, Turkel wrote the following:
"We need Tekton full time. Mr. Walker's impotence and fish-flopping is plain evidence (only the latest!) of this ministry's effectiveness, of the Holy Spirit's movement through these pages. Please submit your testimony and help make full-time ministry a reality. Free my warrior side from its shackles, and let the destruction of strongholds begin in earnest."
As was noted above, he heaps insults on those who do not agree with him. He does it constantly and even derides other Christians. He will invent babyish nicknames for people in an effort to minimize and denigrate them. His insults become more petulant and childish directly in proportion to how powerfully his claims are being refuted or how desperately he is trying to dodge a question. Many people would describe this type of behavior from a 34-year-old man as incredibly immature, possibly indicative of some form of mental illness. However, Turkel sees things a little differently. To Turkel, spewing childish insults is a way to appear cocky and confident, and he believes that this ultimately helps him to win souls for the Lord. The following is from a "Tektonic Ministries" essay:
If you play the nice guy, you're likely to get swarmed, not by any irrefutable arguments, but rather, by a veritable skyscraper of excess and inflammatory verbiage. And unfortunately, there are those, on both sides of the argument, who are persuaded by such things. We are humans, not computers, and a show of confidence or arrogance does, to some, seem to equate with being the victor.
He uses various methods to dodge questions about Bible problems that he has no "answers" for:
- He may simply refuse to answer certain questions--even if these questions are very basic and concern large and important topics. For example, queries to Turkel about evolution and the Bible or natural history and the Bible are greeted with evasions and remain unanswered.
- He may repeatedly claim that he has answered a question when in fact he has not. This tactic-yet another example of Turkel's dishonesty-is most brazenly employed in his debates with Farrell Till. Go here to see a number of examples.
- He may cut and paste large blocks of information in response to a question. This information will have some vague, peripheral relation to the subject of the question but will not specifically answer the question. He will then pretend that this pasted information has answered the question. This is how he responded to one of my questions about Deuteronomy 20:22.
He will misrepresent skeptics' positions and then mock and insult these skeptics based on his misrpresentations. For example, in our discussion below he proposed a "deal" in which I would read 150 books of his choosing if he would read 150 books of my choosing. I pointed out that this was simply a debate tactic of some kind and was clearly ridiculous. Turkel then implied that I was a hypocrite for refusing to read his books since, he said, I had actually expected him to read the equivalent of 150 scientific books in order answer one of my questions about the book of Genesis. Turkel's claim was not only false but was the exact opposite of the truth since I had specifically made the point that nothing more than a sixth grade education was required to answer my question.
Here is an excerpt from this exchange:
ME:I would suggest to you that it is not necessary to earn a science degree or to be a scientist to understand and accept that the earth is not and cannot be only a few thousand years old. It does not take a PhD in astrophysics to see this, just a sixth grade education and some measure of common sense.
(snip)
ME: As far as the "deal" to read 150 books, what is the point of this? The point, clearly, is to make an absurd challenge that you know no reasonable person would ever accept, to take my refusal to accept such a "deal" as some kind of victory for your position, and then use this "victory" in any future responses you might make. Pathetic.
TURKEL: As in, expecting me to go out and read all that science material? Ha ha! Actually what has happened here is that you've realized you've put your foot in your mouth and are now backing up as fast as you can.
Turkel not only completely misrepresented my position, but he used his fabrication as a reason not to answer my question and also as the basis for claiming that I had "put my foot in my mouth" and was "backing up as fast as" I could. Unreal.
Here is another example of this dishonest Turkel technique.
He concocts absolutely ludicrous rationalizations for Bible problems. He speculates wildly about the geographical, social, and historical conditions of the ancient Near East in a desperate effort to deny Bible contradictions and justify God-ordained evil. This type of rationalizing can be seen in my discussion with him below and in his debates with Farrell Till.
He mistakes excessive verbiage for profundity and will crow loudly about the the size of his responses to Bible critics, as though the validity of his arguments is somehow determined by the number of words he can type.
He became unemployed in the last year or two and has begun begging for money on his website. He has also used less than honorable methods to pocket some cash from Amazon referrals. This article, Drooling for Dollars, describes Turkel's feeble efforts to to rationalize what he is doing.
Though he doesn't seem terribly eager to advertise it, he is a young earth creationist. He is a college-educated, grown adult and he actually believes that the book of Genesis is literally, factually, historically true.
He enjoys branding skeptics as "bigots" if they don't praise and celebrate the barbaric cultural practices of the ancient Near East.
He supports and justifies the Spanish Inquisition.
He supports and justifies the Crusades.
He supports and justifies every biblical massacre and atrocity condoned, commanded or committed by the biblical god.
He supports and justifies the eternal torture of everyone who does not happen to share his religious beliefs. I will leave it for others to decide whether this qualifies as a form of insanity.
He is a Baptist.

I became aware of much of this only after getting into a discussion with Mr. Turkel. He offers his e-mail address for questions-so I decided to e-mail him a few questions in 1999. After three or four exchanges he asked me to post my next questions publicly. I have complied with his wish and have decided to include all of our correspondence here, further on in this page. Immediately below I am posting a large number of links to other people's replies to Turkel as well as some of Turkel's own writings. I believe that Mr. Turkel's actions and statements demonstrate the dangers of fundamentalist indoctrination. My hope is that readers will find the information on this page educational and enlightening

kid-A

Devon,

That was a fantastic post. Its highly illuminating to see exactly who "shining one" gets his intellectual inspiration from.

Shining One

Ah Devon,
Whip out the old 'credentials', 'accepted', 'scholars', and 'liar'. You accuse and deride. Never mind the actual information and the fact that the real liars have wrongly accused Christianity of the 'flat earth' belief. This fellow is not the only one to question the veracity of various claims by skeptics. You count it against him because he takes the literal events of Genesis literally? LOL at you.
Go away, son. Typically creationists do not question the actual science, what they question is the interpretation of the data. That has been demonstrated to depend on the presuppositions of the person doing the interpreting!
Rex

tetrapod.sapien

Never mind the actual information and the fact that the real liars have wrongly accused Christianity of the 'flat earth' belief.

er, actually, that circular earth crap belongs to the jews. you xians just adopted it from them. well done.

TS

Preston

Leolaia's gonna put a cap in yo ass when she finds out you're mispronouncing her name.

Fool, you better recognize.

- Preston

Shining One

>er, actually, that circular earth crap belongs to the jews. you xians just adopted it from them. well done.

Really? Perhaps you can debunk the article in the link, point by point? If you can't do that, just shut up. LOL
Rex

sf

Rex,

Does Ted Bell and/ or Frank Walton ring any bells with you?

sKally

tetrapod.sapien

Really? Perhaps you can debunk the article in the link, point by point? If you can't do that, just shut up. LOL

rexly,

why waste my time on an article that uses the bible as it's main source for evidence? i have very good reason to think that the bible is a load of crap. why would i indulge in picking bible verses apart?

the last paragraph is hilarious though:

It must be admitted outright that SOME of the items listed here COULD be interpreted as giving a false cosmology - but it is also possible to interpret them other ways.

and they leave out the fact that the most parsimonious way to interpret the bible is by throwing in the same ancient text heap with Homer. of course there are other ways to interpret the passage! probably thousands of ways! what makes your interpretation the correct one? i dare say you do not have a good answer, if it has anything to do with faith and being a square-head.

The Bible lacks specifics in this regard

surprise surprise! perhaps that's because it was written by a bunch of ancient cattle herders?

and so leaves the answer, "Does the Bible teach bad cosmology?",

er, actually, that's a question, not an answer...

oh, i get it! mystery! you xians just love mystery in the form of an unfalsifiable question parading as an actual answer!

But for the majority of the cites we have seen, there is no such ambiguity, merely misinterpretation by skeptics and/or poetry.

yes, because poetry is for pansy liberals, and skeptics lack God Jesus' Holy Spirit!

We are justified in our assertion that there is no proof that the Bible teaches a false cosmology.

because the skeptics have got it wrong?! because god chose to use poetry instead of descriptive language?! -- LOL @ you rex!

your "apologetic truth" should be able to handle the skeptics if___it____REALLY____WAS___TRUTH____FROM____________GOD.

Sirrah!

Terry, Leolani: your flat-earth lie is debunked..

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