Jesus or Satan ?

by carla 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  defd

  Dfed, you mean everybody who leaves goes on to smoke, and steal and basically become immoral in your mind?

  No not at all. That is what I DONE before studying the bible with JWS. After Learning about God and Jesus and ALL the wonderful truths THROUGH the JWS I quit all those things. The bible does say that those who turn their backs on God RETURN to the mire from which they came from. I have also seen that MANY on here who were once LONG time Faithful Witness and LEFT are SWEARING, Hateful and mean, worship Jesus as God now and much much more. What happened there?
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  carla

  Big deal! You could have quit smoking with a 12 step program or the patch or the gum, whatever. Same with drinking. Swearing? Upgrade your vocabulary. How about all the jw's who do all those things while being a jw?

  I notice you had no comment where the wt confused Jesus with Satan. Maybe it's just me but, I have a real problem with any org that claims to be Christian and get Satan and Christ confused.

  Any changes you have made in your personal life were not due to any personal choice or moral decision on your part. It takes alot more courage to make changes when nobody is looking and you still do it. When nobody is there to punish you and your family if you don't. It takes more courage to rely on God to help with making changes than to rely on men who are watching everything you do. It takes courage to really examine your beliefs and org that you belong to, be it a church or a hall. It takes more courage to accomplish something when you know there will be no pat on the back from a bunch of smiling fakes that only will befriend you if you believe exactly as they claim to. It takes courage to lay down your life for a friend as Jesus did something no jw would ever do, not even for their own child. Courage is not in the jw vocabulary.
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  defd

  It takes courage to lay down your life for a friend as Jesus did something no jw would ever do, not even for their own child.

  I would and I am a JW.
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  carla

  So are you going to comment on the flip flops? Doesn't that worry you at all that they could confuse Jesus and Satan? Don't any of the flip flops make you wonder who's spirit is actually guiding the boys in Brooklyn?
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  Honesty

  Now what should I do now that you have shown me a change in our understanding? LEAVE the Org? Stop attending the meetings, stop reading the bible, start going to a church, stop worshipping Jehovah, start believing that Jesus is God

  Do what you you know is right in your heart, defd.

  I read the bible 10 times more in one week than I read it in one year as a loyal appointed JW. I worship Jesus just as the early churches did. I also am a member of a Christian church now. One, that I may add is instrumental in providing verifiable relief efforts to all kinds of people. One that, in an organised manner witnesses to a lost and dying world about Jesus. One that provides extensive education on how to witness to people without pushing literature on them contains condemnation of every other religious group. One that provides practical answers to God, life and man's purpose on earth. One that does not have classes such as GB member, BO, DO, CO, elder, MS, pioneer, publisher, approved associated, DA'd or DF'd persons. One that shows genuine love and concern for all people and that knows what Jesus' parable about the Good Samaritan means and how to apply it in everyday life. Oh yeah, I believe Jesus is God just as Thomas did.
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  Midget-Sasquatch

  I remember being puzzled at how they could say the parable at Matthew 13 was also pointing to a counterfeit kingdom. They still hold to this idea of it covering both the positive and the negative.

  Insight in the Scriptures, Vol.1 p. 1179 Illustrations

  (4) The mustard grain (Mt 13:31, 32; Mr 4:30-32; Lu 13:18, 19). It is stated that the subject is "the kingdom of the heavens." As shown in other texts, this can refer to some feature in connection with the Kingdom (even those falsely claiming to represent it) and is not limited to the approved membership of that Kingdom.

  I wish I had access to material from the turn of the century. From a 1975 WT I've found, it seems they've been contemplating how to interpret this for a very long time. Thats if we can count on them accurately quoting even their own older material.

  w75 10/1 pp. 590-591 Things Which the "Kingdom of the Heavens" Is Like

  5 "Well, when he said these things, all his opposers began to feel shame; but all the crowd began to rejoice at all the glorious things done by him. Therefore he went on to say: ‘What is the kingdom of God like, and with what shall I compare it? It is like a mustard grain that a man took and put in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of heaven took up lodging in its branches.’ And again he said: ‘With what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented.’"—Luke 13:17-21.

  6 Because "all the crowd began to rejoice at all the glorious things done by him," one would incline to think that Jesus reacted to the rejoicing of "all the crowd" by telling two prophetic illustrations to picture how God’s kingdom would not be made up of only a "little flock," as Jesus had indicated earlier, in Luke 12:32. Instead, it would grow to great size and all the world of mankind would be like birds by their lodging in the refuge provided by the Kingdom. Also, that the great mass of mankind would become impregnated with the true teachings of Christianity. For instance, the Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Gospel of Matthew, by H. A. W. Meyer, Th.D., English edition of 1884, says on page 259, paragraph three: The parable of the mustard seed is designed to show that the great community, consisting of those who are to participate in the Messianic kingdom, i.e., the true people of God as constituting the body politic of the future kingdom, is destined to develop from a small beginning into a vast multitude, and therefore to grow extensively; . . . "being a small flock, they were increased into a countless one." The parable of the leaven, on the other hand, is intended to show how the specific influences of the Messiah’s kingdom (Eph. iv.4 ff.) gradually penetrate the whole of its future subjects, till by this means the entire mass is brought intensively into that spiritual condition which qualifies it for being admitted into the kingdom.

  7 However, there is a fact that is here worth considering as significant. It is this: Right after recording those two parables of Jesus and telling how thereafter he went teaching from place to place, the Gospel writer Luke injects the question of a certain man: "Lord, are those who are being saved few?" Did Jesus’ answer seem to agree with that suggestion? Did it indicate a kingdom of a "little flock"?—Luke 13:22, 23.

  8 Listen: "He said to them: ‘Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able, when once the householder has got up and locked the door, and you start to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, "Sir, open to us." But in answer he will say to you, "I do not know where you are from." Then you will start saying, "We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways." But he will speak and say to you, "I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!" There is where your weeping and the gnashing of your teeth will be, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside.’" (Luke 13:23-28) So, as many as do get in through the "narrow door" will have to ‘exert themselves vigorously.’—Note also Luke 13:5-9.

  9 Back in the issue of Zion’s Watch Tower dated April 1881, on page 5, there appeared a contribution by J. H. Paton, on the parable of the leaven. In the course of his discussion he said: This work of progression and glorious success, seems to be illustrated by the Saviour’s parable, in which He compared the kingdom of heaven to leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened. Matt. 13:33. A very plausible and we will add, forcible objection to this application of the parable, is based on the fact that leaven of bread and of doctrine are spoken of in the Bible as elements of impurity and of corruption. Would the Saviour represent the kingdom of heaven by an element and process of corruption? We understand the Saviour here uses one feature of the leaven only, in His illustration, that is its permeating power. It does not cease until the work is done, so God’s kingdom will not cease its operations until the curse is removed.

  10 However, Zion’s Watch Tower, under date of May 15, 1900, page 154, took exception to that view. Under the subheading "The Parable of the Leaven," it said: "Leaven represents corruption throughout the Scriptures: In every other instance of its Scriptural use it is represented as an evil, an impurity, something that is defiling. . . . It would not seem reasonable that our Lord should use the word leaven here as Christian people generally suppose, in a good sense, as implying some grace of the holy spirit. On the contrary, we recognize consistency in all of his teachings, and we may be as sure that he would not use leaven as a symbol of righteousness as that he would not use leprosy as a symbol of holiness."

  11 The Watch Tower, under date of June 15, 1910, page 205, pursued that same line of thought. It said, under the heading "Leaven Hidden in the Meal," the following: "The parable of the ‘leaven’ (v. 33) illustrates the process by which, as was foretold, the church would get into the wrong condition. As a woman would take her batch of flour for baking and put leaven (yeast) in it and the result would be that the mass would become leavened, so it would be with the church of Christ; the food of the entire household would become leavened or corrupted. Every portion would become more or less vitiated with the leaven of false doctrines which would permeate the entire mass. Thus today nearly every doctrine inculcated by Jesus and his apostles has become more or less perverted or twisted by the errors of the dark ages."—See also The Watch Tower as of June 15, 1912, pages 198, 199, under the heading "Parable of the Leaven"

  16 Does the former explanation in the 1900, 1910 and 1912 issues of The Watch Tower on the parable of the leaven hold good today, when Jesus’ parabolic illustrations are reaching the climax of their fulfillment? Yes, indeed! Some students of the Bible might incline to object, because, say they, it is "the kingdom of the heavens" that is said to be like the leaven and like the grain of mustard seed. (Matt. 13:31-33)

  Edit: I hate formatting long quotes.
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  Leolaia

  "But in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.--That is, Destroyer. But in plain English his name is Satan, the Devil." (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 159).

  "They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon [meaning "Destroyer"]." (Revelation 9:11). As "angel of the abyss" and "Destroyer", Jesus had truly released a plaguing woe on Christendom" (Revelation, Its Grand Climax at Hand!, p. 148).
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  Leolaia

  Does anyone know when they changed the interpretation of Abaddon/Apollyon as referring to Jesus, instead of Satan?
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  Midget-Sasquatch

  The WT index I have only cites literature back to 1930. Some of the oldest references I could find with Abaddon being identified as Jesus were these:

  • (1932) Vindication:Book 2 pg. 186
  • (1930) Light:Book 1 pg 145-6

  Hopefully someone can confirm these with scans and maybe even find something older.
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  Poztate

  Carla I woul;d like to see that one myself. I HIGHLY doubt that you will find any.

  D.

  DEFD...In this one thread alone you have had the flip flops on superior authorities pointed out to you and also the incredible confusion over whom Abaddon was Jesus or Satan. It's time to take your blinders off.The ROT is not just at the congregation level. It goes all the way to the top. This organization needs to be flushed down the toilet of life. There is no Truth™ to be found there.