Can any JW answer OldSoul's 4 questions about JW teachings scripturally?

by kwintestal 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

kid-A

JWs, your silence is deafening !!!!
TheListener

Uh... I'm a jw still. I can't answer those questions.
shadow

OS,
No intention of being obtuse here, just seeking to clarify the points made. I have often found that people give answers or comments without having adequte understanding of the question in the first place, so please bear with me as I ruminate on this subject.
It seems to me that the heart of the matter is whether or not there is any basis for believing that the GB has any authority or appointment of any kind from God and if so was it given to them exclusively and irrevocably.
Another example of authority is generally agreed to refer to secular governments.
(Romans 13:1-4) 13
Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.
By what process do these secular governments hold authority and do we have a divine mandate to be in subjection to them? Or the example you cited of the Sanhedrin. Does Jesus comment in Matthew imply the Jews should be subject in any way to that institution?
(Matthew 23:2-3) 2
"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform.
OldSoul

(Romans 13:1-4) 13 ; Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.
By what process do these secular governments hold authority and do we have a divine mandate to be in subjection to them? ; Or the example you cited of the Sanhedrin. ; Does Jesus comment in ;Matthew imply the Jews should be subject in any way to that institution?

Thank you for thinking it through thoroughly. I wasn't intending to insult you, it just seemed like it would be obvious why I wanted support for each of those teachings. I have to leave town for a few days, but very briefly:
They hold authority by God's permission not by His appointment. Our subjection is relative and cannot override subjection to God. In the case of the Faithful and Discreet Slave, the doctrine of these men equates subjection to their authority with subjection to the authority of God.
In Matthew 23 Jesus was clearly not telling the people to obey everything the Pharisees said. You are well aware of the contextual disparity of making that claim, but I will let you clarify it, if you choose to. Unless you are suggesting that it was okay for the Pharisees to "seat themselves" in the seat of Moses, in which case I return to the point we should all be Catholic or Jewish. I beg that you will read verse 12 and then adjust this misapplication.
And, no, Jesus did not imply that the Jews should be subject to the Sanhedrin except in the same relative way as stated in Romans 13. We MUST obey God as ruler rather than men. By the way, the example of Sanhedrin only carries so far because the Jews were subject to them nationally. Even as Christians, Jewish born Christians were subject to the Law of Moses where it did not conflict with the law of Christ. Such is not the case with the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
Please think on it some more, and post any Scriptural basis for these doctrines applying to the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
shadow

OS,
I don't expect to be able to respond again today, but should be able to elaborate tomorrow.
And thanks to you for posing an intriguing topic to examine, I share your disappointment with many JWs who seem to feel such questions are inappropriate.
shadow

Since the main thrust of this discussion centers on the matter of authority, I would assert that an examination of the development of other authority structures would be germane to the discussion. The first authority and the basis for it are quite clearly spelled out in scripture. (Revelation 4:11) 11 “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.” He has delegated some of that authority. (Matthew 28:18) 18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. The first authority in human society is based on the family unit. Creation of these relationships hinged entirely on whether or not individuals chose to become part of such an arrangement. However, once they did, they were subject to that authority structure. While Jehovah instituted this arrangement, the expression of it has not remained constant throughout history. One example is the tolerance and regulation of polygamy. (Ephesians 5:22-24) 22 Let wives be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord, 23 because a husband is head of his wife as the Christ also is head of the congregation, he being a savior of [this] body. 24 In fact, as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, so let wives also be to their husbands in everything. (1 Corinthians 11:3) 3 But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God. (Ephesians 6:1-2) 6 Children, be obedient to YOUR parents in union with [the] Lord, for this is righteous: 2 “Honor your father and [your] mother”; which is the first command with a promise: As human society redeveloped after the flood, groups of humans formed themselves into larger societies, such as the patriarchal system, city states and eventually kingdoms, empires and nations. Jehovah at times made use of these human constructs. (2 Chronicles 33:11) 11 Finally Jehovah brought against them the chiefs of the army that belonged to the king of As•syr´i•a, and so they captured Ma•nas´seh in the hollows and bound him with two fetters of copper and took him to Babylon. I submit that for centuries it was vague as to what viewpoint a servant of Jehovah should have of these emerging authority structures, especially after the nation of Israel lost its special position. Paul clarified the correct viewpoint in Romans. (Romans 13:1-7) 13 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad. 5 There is therefore compelling reason for YOU people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of [YOUR] conscience. 6 For that is why YOU are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such honor. Now the question arises as to how these governments evolved into superior authorities. In modern Western thought, it is generally theorized that a legitimate government can only exist with the permission of the governed. Is the US government a legitimate authority that we should be in subjection to from a scriptural perspective? If so, at what point did it attain this legitimacy? In most of human history, these superior authorities attained their positions through force, not permission. Still Paul considered them to be legitimate authorities and did not even preach against slavery. The nation of Israel is a special case since they came into existence only through divine intervention. Even in this case humans were allowed to develop and modify the authority structures. Moses listened to Jethro when delegating some of his authority. (Exodus 18:13-27) 13 And it came about on the next day that Moses sat down as usual to serve as judge for the people, and the people kept standing before Moses from the morning till the evening. 14 And Moses’ father-in-law got to see all that he was doing for the people. So he said: “What kind of business is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you alone continue sitting and all the people continue taking their stand before you from morning till evening?” 15 Then Moses said to his father-in-law: “Because the people keep coming to me to inquire of God. 16 In the event that they have a case arise, it must come to me and I must judge between the one party and the other, and I must make known the decisions of the [true] God and his laws.” 17 At this Moses’ father-in-law said to him: “It is not good the way you are doing. 18 You will surely wear out, both you and this people who are with you, because this business is too big a load for you. You are unable to do it by yourself. 19 Now listen to my voice. I shall advise you, and God will prove to be with you. You yourself serve as representative for the people before the [true] God, and you yourself must bring the cases to the [true] God. 20 And you must warn them of what the regulations and the laws are, and you must make known to them the way in which they should walk and the work that they should do. 21 But you yourself should select out of all the people capable men, fearing God, trustworthy men, hating unjust profit; and you must set these over them as chiefs over thousands, chiefs over hundreds, chiefs over fifties and chiefs over tens. 22 And they must judge the people on every proper occasion; and it must occur that every big case they will bring to you, but every small case they themselves will handle as judges. So make it lighter for yourself, and they must carry the load with you. 23 If you do this very thing, and God has commanded you, you will then certainly be able to stand it and, besides, this people will all come to their own place in peace.” 24 Immediately Moses listened to the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said. 25 And Moses proceeded to choose capable men out of all Israel and to give them positions as heads over the people, as chiefs of thousands, chiefs of hundreds, chiefs of fifties and chiefs of tens. 26 And they judged the people on every proper occasion. A hard case they would bring to Moses, but every small case they themselves would handle as judges. 27 After that Moses saw his father-in-law off, and he went his way to his land. Later the nation would clamor for another modification by insisting on having a human king. (1 Samuel 8:1-22) 8 And it came about that as soon as Samuel had grown old he made appointments of his sons as judges for Israel. 2 Now the name of his firstborn son happened to be Joel, and the name of his second A•bi´jah; they were judging in Be´er-she´ba. 3 And his sons did not walk in his ways, but they were inclined to follow unjust profit and would accept a bribe and pervert judgment. 4 In time all the older men of Israel collected themselves together and came to Samuel at Ra´mah 5 and said to him: “Look! You yourself have grown old, but your own sons have not walked in your ways. Now do appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.” 6 But the thing was bad in the eyes of Samuel inasmuch as they had said: “Do give us a king to judge us,” and Samuel began to pray to Jehovah. 7 Then Jehovah said to Samuel: “Listen to the voice of the people as respects all that they say to you; for it is not you whom they have rejected, but it is I whom they have rejected from being king over them. 8 In accord with all their doings that they have done from the day of my bringing them up out of Egypt until this day in that they kept leaving me and serving other gods, that is the way they are doing also to you. 9 And now listen to their voice. Only this, that you should solemnly warn them, and you must tell them the rightful due of the king who will reign over them.” 10 So Samuel said all the words of Jehovah to the people who were asking a king of him. 11 And he proceeded to say: “This will become the rightful due of the king that will reign over YOU: YOUR sons he will take and put them as his in his chariots and among his horsemen, and some will have to run before his chariots; 12 and to appoint for himself chiefs over thousands and chiefs over fifties, and [some] to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his war instruments and his chariot instruments. 13 And YOUR daughters he will take for ointment mixers and cooks and bakers. 14 And YOUR fields and YOUR vineyards and YOUR olive groves, the best ones, he will take and actually give to his servants. 15 And of YOUR fields of seed and of YOUR vineyards he will take the tenth, and he will certainly give [them] to his court officials and his servants. 16 And YOUR menservants and YOUR maidservants and YOUR best herds, and YOUR asses he will take, and he will have to use them for his work. 17 Of YOUR flocks he will take the tenth, and YOU yourselves will become his as servants. 18 And YOU will certainly cry out in that day by reason of YOUR king, whom YOU have chosen for yourselves, but Jehovah will not answer YOU in that day.” 19 However, the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel and said: “No, but a king is what will come to be over us. 20 And we must become, we also, like all the nations, and our king must judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.” 21 And Samuel gave a hearing to all the words of the people; then he spoke them in the ears of Jehovah. 22 And Jehovah proceeded to say to Samuel: “Listen to their voice, and you must cause a king to reign for them.” Accordingly Samuel said to the men of Israel: “Go each one to his city.” Later it was said that the king sat on Jehovah’s throne. Does this imply that Jehovah acquiesced and used this institution? (1 Chronicles 29:23) 23 And Sol´o•mon began to sit upon Jehovah’s throne as king in place of David his father and to make a success of it, and all the Israelites were obedient to him. Other examples of the latitude given to Israel may be found in the establishment and observances of the Festival of Lots and the Festival of Dedication. A case previously mentioned is the Sanhedrin and Jesus did give counsel to be obedient to the Jewish leaders to some extent. (Matthew 23:1-3) 23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. After Jesus’ death the 1st century congregations developed authority structures in the form of elders & ministerial servants or bishops & deacons or whatever they are labeled. (Titus 1:5) 5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders; (Hebrews 13:17) 17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU. Based on past history, if Jehovah has begun to gather a group of people to serve him, they would have a certain amount of latitude in developing their authority structures, including creating a GB in spite of the fact that one did not exist in the first century. Summary: The point is that an authority structure does not have to be established through divine intervention in order to be legitimate. The Sanhedrin did have some legitimate authority notwithstanding the self-aggrandizing claims about their origin. The consistent pattern shown by those in authority is to abuse it. This pattern has held true in every human social structure, whether established by Jehovah or not. The pattern holds true even among JWs where apparently those in authority want us to be in absolute subjection to them in contrast to every other human authority which are quite correctly viewed as deserving only relative subjection.
TD

I think civil, criminal and spiritual authority have all three been merged together and the result (IMO) is a somewhat murky picture.
The Law originally governed an autonomous state and as such exercised authority in all three areas. In contrast, Christianity, which came into existence at the height of the Pax Romana coexists with the State by exercising neither civil nor criminal authority. For example, although Christianity recognizes that murder is wrong, the determination of the crime and punishment is left to whatever State the adherent happens to live in. (Paul's "Superior authorities")
Christianity concerns itself with spiritual matters and the authority of that appointment was made by divine intervention. Therefore I would question whether the legitimacy of organizations that claim to weild this authority can be justified on the ad hoc basis by which Christians recognize the authority of the State.
OldSoul

Shadow -- Summary: The point is that an authority structure does not have to be established through divine intervention in order to be legitimate. The Sanhedrin did have some legitimate authority notwithstanding the self-aggrandizing claims about their origin. The consistent pattern shown by those in authority is to abuse it. This pattern has held true in every human social structure, whether established by Jehovah or not. The pattern holds true even among JWs where apparently those in authority want us to be in absolute subjection to them in contrast to every other human authority which are quite correctly viewed as deserving only relative subjection.

Shadow,
You have obviously given this a lot of thought. As I understand it, you basically are admitting that just like the Pharisees, the Governing Body have seated themselves in the seat of Moses, just like the Sanhedrin, the Governing Body expects absolute subjection to them in contrast to every other authority which only should be given relative subjection, and just like every other human arrangement (including the arrangement suggested by Jethro) those involved presume authority they do not have and abuse what relative authority is genuinely theirs.
This was very well proven by your quotes and I greatly appreciate the effort.
However, it didn't even answer one of the Scriptural proofs needed for the doctrines of faith regarding the position of the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
I note: Moses did not lie and claim that God originated the arrangement suggested by Jethro. I do not even see this scant tittle of humility from the Governing Body. They claim to be God's spokesmen for the Faithful and Discreet Slave. They claim that the Faithful and Discreet Slave are appointed by God as prophets for our day. They claim that this appointment follows the pattern of John, Elijah, and Jeremiah. The Sanhedrin was not nearly so bold.
A question: Is absolute subjection owed to any who call for it? Then we should all be Jews or Catholic. Your arguments in favor of submission to authority are carbon copies of those presented by both faiths.
In my opinion, we cannot escape the fact that if Romans 13 is to literally be applied to EVERYONE who "calls" for it, then we would change our allegiances with more frequency than a cricket hops in a new direction. Again, in my opinion, when you quote Matthew 23:3 out of context you imply (by omission) that Jesus would like for his disciples to be prevented from going into the kingdom of the heavens. (Matthew 23:13) And while I think an anology to the Pharisees or the Sanhedrin is very fitting, I do not agree that the analogy should extend to correlating exercise of religious authority to exercise of governmental authority.
Why would Jesus warn away from the leaven, i.e. the corrupting influence, of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees if he really wanted them to submit to it? To even imply that implies a contradiction to EVERY other word recorded about Jesus view of Pharisees and Sadducees. And that includes the words in the rest of Matthew 23. They seated themselves in the seat of Moses, just as the Governing Body has done. The GB goes one step further and claims divine appointment by Holy Spirit, along with the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
However, that entire argument is a side issue. A side issue that includes rampant unfounded assumptions. The discussion seems to be diverted to one you wish to have instead of staying on a track of providing any Scriptural proof regarding the points I raised. Again, you have not even addressed whether the Faithful and Discreet Slave has Scriptural support for its claim that (1) as a class they comprise (2) God's spirit-directed organization on earth today for the purpose of (3) discerning and dispensing "new light" to the (4) other sheep who can't get this light through any other means?
As far as I can tell, without substantiation for these claims there is no reason for anyone to submit to their claim to authority. I doubt if anyone would be punished for doing so of their own volition unless, in the course of doing so, they overstep a commandment of God in their haste to observe the traditions of the Governing Body. (Mark 7:1-8) My father feels I am criticizing him by questioning these things, he thinks I am, in effect, calling him stupid. That is not my intent. I intend to find out whether there is Scriptural basis for their claim to authority.
Is there, Shadow? Or is it a lie they tell? If there is, I NEED to see the Scriptural proof. I can't find it. If there isn't, then they are lying and deceiving people by claiming authority they do not have.
I cannot see where the Scriptures you provided lend support to any one of the four dogmatic doctrinal claims. These are claims so zealously upheld that people are cut off from their loved ones by simply denying the truth of them publicly. That is only supposed to occur when there is absolute Scriptural proof that someone has committed a gross wrong. You are aware that these doctrines are not viewed as a trifle in any way by the Organization. Where is the SCRIPTURAL evidence for these claims?
In other words, if the evidence doesn't exist please admit that.
Shadow: An essential test of the veracity of their claims would be an examination of the fruitage that is produced
By their fruits, yes. By their message? No. Messengers can transform themselves into angels of light, i.e. messengers of light (Light Bearers).
Matthew 7:15-23 -- "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
"Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
What would those who are rejected be doing? (1) Coming in sheep's covering, (2) prohesying, (3) expelling demons, and (4) performing powerful works. Now for a question most Witnesses fail to ask themselves about these verses: How does Jesus primarily identify those to watch out for?
As "false prophets". What did that term mean to a Jew? Have you examined the "fruit" of the Faithful and Discreet Slave in light of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 or do you look at their powerful works instead? And this really is why I feel I must know whether there is support for their claims. If there is not, I cannot possibly be speaking abusively of glorious ones to expose the lie of their Divine Authority. If there is Scriptural support, perhaps it isn't a lie.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
kwintestal

Is Shadow still around (or anyone else for that matter want to jump in)? I was enjoying this conversation.
Kwin
OldSoul

Kwin,
Shadow has a very busy life outside this forum. Sometimes he takes weeks or months to post again. I suspect that sometimes he runs into things difficult for him to wrangle with internally. He may take hiatuses as a coping mechanism.
Respectfully,
OldSoul

Can any JW answer OldSoul's 4 questions about JW teachings scripturally?

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