Hi Frank,
I'm checking it out... and will be glad to share thoughts. I thought I'd "seen it all" but this is really different. I've gotta say though my inner cynic is alive and very - well, cynical!
Thank you so much,
Laura
Change in WTS doctrine under way!
by biblexaminer 27 Replies latest watchtower bible
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biblexaminer
I am glad to see that my few hours of typing was of some interest to some.
One person made the point that the WTS doesn't teach that "all religions" will get the axe by the UN "EXCEPT" the WTS.
Interesting point, but for starters, the UN is supposed to destroy only "false religion" and I don't think the WTS includes themselves in this category. On a further note, this article was the subject of the "summary" at the circuit assembly, anf the brother doing the part emphatically stated the "EXCEPT" part, in that the UN etc. will completely leave us alone.
So I feel completely justified.
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chappy
I've also been reading the Urantia book for a few years. IMO it offers a sensable explination of mans relationship with his Creator, his origens and destiny.
I found it interesting that it takes the non-trinitarian view of Jesus as well as using the name Michael. I always thought these ideas, taken together, were unique to JW's. I've done some research trying to find a connection between Rutherford and Kellogg, no luck so far.later,
chappy -
bluesapphire
I think that if they give this new light is only delivered via the platform, the witnesses will discard it. I can hear the die-hards saying, "Unless I see it in print..." I can even remember back when the change of the sheep and the goats came. I told my then fiance, "See, I always said we were NOT doing the separating work." Then his die-hard family jumped all over me and said I was not understanding it properly and that we were doing the separating work, etc. etc. Even in print and it took them at least two years before they finally accepted it. One talk by a circuit overseer isn't going to convince anybody.
Most people sleep or daydream through talks - even those by CO's. It'll go over most of their heads and they wont know what hit them. Especially if it takes months or years before it goes into print. Besides that, the boys in Brooklyn probably want to see what the reaction will be. That way if it's too negative, they can say those CO's were speaking on their own initiative.
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Hmmm
I couldn't get past the seventh paragraph of the foreword:
Your world, Urantia, is one of many similar inhabited planets which comprise the local universe of Nebadon. This universe, together with similar creations, makes up the superuniverse of Orvonton, from whose capital, Uversa, our commission hails. Orvonton is one of the seven evolutionary superuniverses of time and space which circle the never-beginning, never-ending creation of divine perfection--the central universe of Havona. At the heart of this eternal and central universe is the stationary Isle of Paradise, the geographic center of infinity and the dwelling place of the eternal God.
Is this saying that the Urantia book was written by extraterrestrials in/around 1955? After leaving the JWs, I'm going to need some PROOF of these sorts of claims.
Sounds a little L. Ron Hubbard-ish to me.
Hmmm
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chappy
Start with part 111, The History of Urantia.
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Frenchy
BX:
Interesting post. I know this takes a lot of effort (and time!) and so I thank you for your efforts. In the interest of keeping things balanced and in perspective I respectfully respond to a question that you posed::: Now does it make any sense at all, that Jehovah's Witnesses need to watch for an event where the UN goes to church, …so that they know when to flee? FLEE WHAT? They are not in church are they?:: BX
For one thing, the article was not written for JW’s exclusively. Note the following excerpt from w96 6/1 p. 17, pp 16
::“On ‘catching sight’ of this, on recognizing what that international organization is and how it is being idolized, [b]lovers of righteousness[\b] need to flee to safety. Flee out of what? Out of that which is the modern-day antitype of unfaithful Jerusalem, namely, Christendom, and out of all of Babylon the Great, the worldwide system of false religion.—Revelation 18:4.” ::Jw’s will recognize the phrase that I have emboldened to be referring to non-Jw’s, prospective converts yet in the field. This is very powerful ammunition for a witness to read to his Bible Study to nudge that one to take the plunge.
There is another point made by that same article that further answers your question, an application to JW’s themselves.
::“……It means completely separating oneself not only from false religious organizations but also from their customs and the spirit they engender. It is a flight to the place of safety within Jehovah’s theocratic organization.—Ephesians 5:7-11.”::
A further clarification of this is in paragraph 25 of the same article.
::” However, fleeing out of Babylon the Great involves much more than abandoning false religion. There is more to it than attending a few meetings at a Kingdom Hall or going out preaching the good news in field service once or twice a month. A person may be physically outside of Babylon the Great, but has he truly left it behind? Has he separated himself from the world of which Babylon the Great is a prominent part? Does he still cling to those things that reflect its spirit—a spirit that flouts God’s righteous standards? Is he treating sexual morality and marital faithfulness lightly? Does he emphasize personal and material interests more than spiritual interests? He must not allow himself to be fashioned after this system of things.—Matthew 6:24; 1 Peter 4:3, 4.” ::
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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Frenchy
BX:
You pose another question which I feel is closely related to the one I responded to earlier. To wit: “What the hell does it matter to JWs that the UN is going to enter the Churches etc and axe them? If we aren't there, then we're just bystanders. As the aarticle says "After all, obedient Christians will not be punished when destruction comes on false religion and the rest of this wicked system."
Why worry then? Why do JWs need to "be discerning and heed the warning about ‘the disgusting thing standing in a holy place.’ And they will act decisively on their unshakable faith."? WHY?”It matters a great deal to JW’s “that the UN is going to enter the Churches etc and axe them.” Should that occur it would be positive confirmation that the Society was right in its interpretation and application of that prophecy (actually several prophecies). It would be the signal of the beginning of the Great Tribulation inasmuch as it would be the destruction of Babylon the Great. It would also signal a chain of events, according to WT doctrine, that would lead to the UN attacking JW’s. That would certainly be of interest to all JW’s.
You quote the article as saying: “After all, obedient Christians will not be punished when destruction comes on false religion and the rest of this wicked system.” The key phrase here is ‘obedient Christians’ which is WT lingo for loyal JW’s as opposed to the phrase: ‘lovers of righteousness’ which is WT lingo for those who manifest an interest however small it may be. The word “Christian” in its normal use (in contemporary times) is never applied to anyone but JW’s. That is telling the flock that remaining loyal to the organization is a must for their survival. The ‘worry’ that is being fostered here is the ‘worry’ of remaining in conformity to the organizational standards and teachings so as to not be grouped with those in ‘Babylon the Great’. It is one of many fear tactics used to keep the faithful in line and it makes perfect sense to them. It is easily explained in the context of what they believe.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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lauralisa
Hi, Biblexaminer and others
While I was at work today I was thinking more about this thread. I don't have much time to really study all of the available information regarding this issue that appears on this board, but I have a question. If the answer is already implicit in the above, please excuse... I think Frenchy hit on it:
In the prophecy stated in Matthew 24:15 re the abomination causing desolation standing in a holy place, there is of course the resulting situation of "great tribulation" (Mt. 24:21).
If the first part of the prophecy was completed in full in the first century, then is it reasonable to also conclude that the threat of another "great tribulation" yet in our future is also now, um, not imminent?
If I remember correctly, (so quickly I've forgotten the minute details...) that the "great tribulation" was a major focal point, and would alert those lucky guys (who actually understood what all of this supposedly meant and they would let us in on it if we "stayed tuned") that the 1000-year reign, where satan would be abyssed, all of the non jw's would be destroyed and paradise would ensue, was upon us.
So in other words, if the first part of the prophecy is already fulfilled in total, then is it reasonable to conclude that the second part, the "great tribulation" is also fulfilled and there will be no second great tribulation?
How will they know, then, when things are about to hit the fan?
I am very interested in and will be looking for your thoughts on this, BE and others.
Thank you again for your scholarship and efforts. I wish I had more time to devote to this, and to contribute more.
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Frenchy
Lauralisa: “So in other words, if the first part of the prophecy is already fulfilled in total, then is it reasonable to conclude that the second part, the "great tribulation" is also fulfilled and there will be no second great tribulation?”
For one thing, in the NWT, the term ‘great tribulation’ is used four times. The term the great tribulation’ is used but once in Rev 7:14. Matt 24:21 states: “for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred…” the term is used in Acts 7:11 in connection with the famine in Egypt and in Rev 2:22 it is used in connection with reproof given to the congregation in Thyatira. Those committing adultery with ‘that woman Jezebel’ are spoken of as being thrown “into… into great tribulation” The Society has turned the term into a buzz word like ‘the faithful slave’. The term ‘THE great tribulation’ does not appear in Matthew.
BUT…the Bible does indeed preach an ‘end of the world’. Matt 24:3 shows that the disciples believed this. The complete fulfillment of a particular prophecy associated with the end would not necessarily mean that the end had already come. The prophecy of Matt 24 contains many ‘signs’ or elements any one of which might be called a prophecy in itself if one wanted to start splitting hairs. There does not need to be a ‘second great tribulation’ for Armageddon to occur. Of course we realize that the tribulation that Jesus spoke of could occur only once. Note the verse again: “for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” It will not occur again, he said. It’s a one time thing.
Even if the Society were to ‘adjust’ their current teaching on exactly what constitutes (or constituted) the ‘great tribulation’ of Matt 24, it would have little effect on the masses. Remember that the term is also used in Revelation in connection with the end. While many translations use the term in Rev 7:4 and Matt 24:21 not all do. The NIV uses the phrase: “there will be great distress” and NRSV uses the term: “there will be great suffering”. Only in Rev 7:14 is the term used in such a way as to suggest a named event. (NRSV uses the phrase: “out of the great ordeal”)
If need be it would be a simple matter to divorce Matt 24:21 from Rev 7:4 and continue to use the buzz word with the same effect. IF the society chooses to change their stance on there being a second fulfillment of Matt 24:21, this is what I would think would be the path they take. “The Great Tribulation” is a powerful scare tactic used not only by the WTBS but other religions as well.
How will they know, then, when things are about to hit the fan? -lauralisa
The answer to that is in the same chapter of Matt, vs 36: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” I should think that would also disqualify the boys in Brooklyn from knowing as well.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-