I already went down this path myself, tdogg. That's why I know the answer.
"Wind" is just gasses and particulates in the atmosphere (air) set to motion by objects moving through the air (photons, water, animals, airplanes, and etc.)
OldSoul
Why naturalism is irrational
by Shining One 369 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tdogg
Yes, yes, its a smiple argument. My point is that you were quick to call a foul on Leolayla's post regarding borons, etc. It seemed that you were saying that because scientists cannot directly observe borons that the data was invalid. Many things like "gasses and particulates in the atmosphere (air)" are not directly observed but you agree they exist. I was just wondering what the difference was?
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OldSoul
We don't just know of the existence of gasses by their effects. There is the periodic table that predicted the existence of many of them prior to discovery, and predicted some of their properties. It isn't the same as a wholly subtractive exercise when you are identifying a gas.
Wind doesn't exist except in the same way that gravity exists.
Respectfully,
OldSoul -
tdogg
Wind doesn't exist except in the same way that gravity exists.
And respect as well...hehe.
Boy is this thread off track...when this hijacked airliner sets down in Pakistan I'm outta here.
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Caedes
The statement that "creationists and ID-ots HAVE NO TESTABLE HYPOTHESES OR SCIENTIFIC REPLACEMENT THEORIES." is not only insulting (see posting guideline 1.) but is also an outright falsehood. Numerous creationist and ID publications and acticles contain these very things (see for example "The Biotic Message", by ReMine, the creaton model and predictions in "Evolution the Fossils Still Say No" by Gish, the similar chapter by Gish in the Ruse's book: "But is it Science" peer-reviewed journals such as the Creation Research Society Quarterly, Technical Journal, etc,etc.
With this in mind I shall be parading my belief that the earth is flat and claiming it is a valid scientific hypothesis shortly after writing it up in "flat eath weekly".
Only after it is subject to the most intense scrutiny by my chums, sorry, my learned colleagues at the "flat earth society" of course.
The week after I plan to ensure it is taught at all schools as proven scientific fact on the basis that every serious scientist laughed at my hypothesis and thus schools should "teach the controversy"
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rem
Oldsoul,
>> What I take issue with is not Science exploring material reality. I take issue with people who infer that spirituality is delusional. That would make the majority of the world's population, including many scientist's who don't support young earth, delusional.
So what if it does? If they are interpreting a materially caused perception as a bonafide spiritual experience, then they *are* deluded. It may not be possible to prove, but the preponderence of evidence and Occham's razor is on the side of the materialists.
>> If delusions are as Psychiatry define, "falsifiable beliefs" then those who believe in a spiritual realm are not delusional. Are they, rem? Tetrapod.sapien? Cygnus? Caedes? kid-A?
Not just for believing in the spiritual realm - that's just irrational (belief without evidence). Delusion can be mistaking a physical perception for a spiritual one. Some instances can be proven as delusion, some can only be deduced.
Seeing that spiritual perceptions can be induced by physical stimulus to the brain (electric, chemical, and mechanical) in my opinion there is not much hope of finding any so-called spirit realm. Seeing that there are so many physical explanations I take the position that people who experience spiritual perceptions (and regard them as truly spiritual and without material cause) are delusional until every other physical avenue can be eliminated as a possibility.
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LittleToe
Rem:Do you REALLY want me to get started?
We've danced this tango before, my friend...
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rem
Hehe... you know I'm just pushing your buttons! :)
Actually I meant to say "most probably delusional"... I don't want to come accross too dogmatic now.
Cheers,
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LittleToe
Rem:And given your prefered use of Occam's Razor, doesn't that suggest that you believe me to be delusional?
Gee, ta, pal...
Do you really think we've come to the limit of our evolution? Also, do you accept that it's theoretically plausible that there are other dimensions beyond the four that we generally measure with science?
Not just for believing in the spiritual realm - that's just irrational (belief without evidence).
On the contrary, as the argument this thread suggests - one person might easily be able to observe something that another cannot, eg. green.
Delusion can be mistaking a physical perception for a spiritual one.
Bad choice of words. It could easily be mistaken identity, causing the building of a false paradigm, but that isn't "delusion" per se as it needn't be pathological.
OldSoul:
You're argument is neglecting the "invisible" affect of radiant heat (eg. from the sun) affecting atmospheric conditions. This can be replicated in a lab. Further, wind can be observed by adding tracer dye, such as smoke, and the air can be sampled for molecular contentI'd ask them "how do you replicate gravity?"
G'nite all
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Caedes
Since science has restricted its experimentation to a field which prevents analysis of the entire scope of my reality, why should I imagine that in 10,000 years they will discover anything outside its self-limiting scope?
Is it likely that Science will discover God when they aren't looking for God? I say, given our history, they will more likely discover a strange invisible "something" that exerts tremendous force on physical bodies, can cause planets, stars, and galaxies to come into existence, and can even bend light. When they find this something, they won't know what it is, but that won't stop them from giving it a name. They'll make up a name for it.
What is gravity?
Respectfully,
OldSoulOld soul
First last shall we? Currently nobody "knows" what gravity actually is, you know this or you wouldn't be asking the question. The important point is that science is attempting to find the answers, Answers that I have little doubt will mean very little to me except for a knowledge that somebody understands how my feet stay on the ground (an appeal to authority I know but bear with me) If I chose to, I could try and understand the maths involved and be able to say yes I know that this is fact but would that make a difference?
Last century your question could have been "what is electricity?" and in the next fifty years it could be "what is quantum entanglement?" But would the answer to the latter satisfy you? It is extremely unlikely that it would since the answer is likely to reside within some very specialist mathematical fields that do not make sense from a "common sense" point of view. Science gives answers regardless of their intuitiveness or lack of it (more of the latter these days) if science was merely a belief system attempting to get bums on seats for the sunday collection then it would attempt to appeal to the masses at every opportunity.
Will science discover some more answers that raise more questions? Yes, Will I find evidence of something supernatural in this world? Possibly but past experience tells me that I wont since I have yet to see one shred of evidence to support anything supernatural in my entire life and there has been not one independant repeatable experiment that shows any evidence of the supernatural in any form. So yes science will make up a name for this new force of yours, after that it's up to god to prove he exists, after all he was the one that made us this thirsty for knowledge, this inquisitive and this cynical? didn't he?
You asked about occams razor earlier, well I think it is the most telling argument, either you believe that the universe came about entirely by natural means or you invent some more complicated means.
Your main argument seems to be that science will never find god because they only deal with our perceived reality, well surely if you have any faith in human science and absolute faith in your god then surely science will eventually discover "proof of gods existence" out there somewhere.
As always a pleasure to bandy words with you