Daniel 4:10-17

OldSoul

The meaning of Daniel 4:10-17 is found in Daniel 4:20-27. I am going to place the interpretation Daniel gives for each element beside the interpretation given by the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I invite any Witness to explain why the interpetation given in the Bible is open to re-interpretation of a later fulfillment that does not correspond, on a single element, with the orginal interpretation.

From Daniel 4:20-27	Daniel's Interpretation	Re-interpretation
The tree that you beheld...	it is you O, king	The tree...symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah
Chop the tree down...with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it	You they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be...and seven times themselves will pass over you	God himself had [His earthly] sovereignty chopped down and banded in 607 B.C.E. when he used Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Jerusalem.
leave its rootstock...with a banding of iron and of copper...	your kingdom will be sure to you after you know that the heavens are ruling.	To enthrone the Messianic King, Jehovah loosened the symbolic iron and copper bands around the “rootstock” of his own sovereignty.

How is an additional fulfillment of this prophecy indicated? It is not.

Why would Nebuchadnezzaar, as a person, ever be used to represent the universal sovereignty of Jehovah? It would not.

In what way did Jehovah's sovereignty dwell with the beasts of the field for seven times? It did not.

What indicates that the seven times mean something other than what these verses state they mean? Nothing indicates that.

Why did Jehovah need to "know that the heavens are ruling?" He did not.

Please, feel free to explain it. If you can. (You cannot) Without this prophecy having a second fulfillment there is no basis for holding 1914 as having any special significance at all. To believe that this prophecy has a second fulfillment we have to take the word of men who claim authority from God: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/98798/1708287/post.ashx#1708287

If they do not have God's authority to speak for him, and they speak for God anyway, then they are false prophets.

OldSoul

ozziepost

Oh dear, OldSoul, don't you understand? The WT must be right - they said so, didn't they? and we know they are speaking for Jehovah. Well, aren't they?

(Ozzie speaking in his best sarcastic tone.)

blondie

Good summary, OS.

Actually the WTS should change their name to the WeSaySo organization.

Blondie

Shakita

Hi OldSoul, I appreciate your simple explanation of that scripture. Instead of using hocus pocus, smoke and mirrors to explain that scripture, you just let the scriptures speak for themselves without any added commentary. The WT has a habit of either putting God into the equation when it is not called for by the text or inserting themselves into the equation when it is clearly not called for by the text. Of course, their claim to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave would take a major hit if it is was discovered by their adherents that the prophecy in Daniel concerning Nebuchadnezzar was only fulfilled in his time and was never meant to have a dual fulfillment. The seven times could have meant a literal seven years or it could have meant a small period of time when Nebuchadnezzar was out in the fields chewing the cud, out of his mind. The WT performs mathematical wizardry when they try to claim that the seven times equates to 2,520 years that started in 607 BCE and ended in 1914 when Jesus allegedly returned invisibly. There are 360 days in the Jewish calendar, multiply 360 days times seven, and you have 2,520 days. But don't stop there. Numbers 14:34 mentions the day for a year punishment in which God made the Israelites wander in the wilderness for forty years. So, voila, that means that the 2,520 days mentioned in Daniel's prophecy aren't really days, they are really years. Mix in eye of newt and snout of pig, shout presto chango and there you have it. Who'da thunk that the punishment doled out to the Israelites in the wilderness has a direct connection to the Israelites situation about 900 years later. Then there is that teensy weensy problem of the actual siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar which occurred in the 18th year of his reign. That would change the date of the siege to 587/586 BCE. Oops! But don't let a little thing like a twenty year discrepancy worry the WT. Why, despite the fact that their reckonings throws all the reigns of the Neo-Babylonian and Assyrian kings off by twenty years. Pish! Don't let that worry them. They'll just unleash their goon squads to insist that they are right. After all, they are God's FDS. And don't you forget it, all you little people. Isn't it alot less confusing when one lets the scriptures do the talking, instead of inserting oneself into the picture? Thanks OldSoul for pointing out the obvious. Mr. Shakita

Darth Yhwh

What WBTS book had this prophecy explained that way? I cant remember. I can see the pictures of the chopped down banded tree in my mind but I cant remember which publication that was.

Leolaia

Excellent comparison, Old Soul.

What makes this especially weird is that the Society uses the INCAPACITATION of a Gentile king (and not just any Gentile king but the very king who began the Gentile Times) to symbolize 2,520 years of Gentile domination. Incapacitation is practically the opposite idea of domination.

carla

Got more like this for us?

OldSoul

Darth Yhwh, I apologize for not including the source of the Re-interpretation.

The irony is not lost on me that they did not pay attention to Daniel's prophecy, but instead invented their own.

Leolaia, I had thought of that but didn't know quite how to word it. Thank you for that additional point. Shakita, thank you for the thoughts on the whacked out numerology and arbitrary application of unrelated prophecies to this one.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

a Christian

As I pointed out in another thread dealing with this topic: Many (like OldSoul here) correctly argue that there is no reason for us to believe that Daniel 4 was meant to have any "larger fulfillment" than the one which Daniel applied to Nebuchadnezzar himself. But if God did intend for this passage of scripture to one day have a larger fulfillment, is the "larger fulfillment" proposed by JWs the most reasonable one? I don't think so. For other "larger fulfillments" of Daniel 4 have been proposed which seem more reasonable to me. For instance, it has been suggested that not God's rule, but Satan the devil's rule, was pictured by that tree. Like that Daniel 4 tree, Satan's rule and influence now fill the whole earth. And like that tree, the Bible tells us that Satan's rule and influence will one day be cut down and bound. The tree in Daniel 4 was bound with metal bands. We are told that one day Satan will be symbolically bound with metal chains. (Rev. 20:1-3) That Nebuchadnezzar would have been used to play the small scale role of Satan seems quite fitting. Nebuchadnezzar was, after all, a Gentile king who had persecuted and enslaved God's people. The tree in Daniel 4 was banded for "7 times." We are told that Satan will be chained for "1,000 years." By what mathematical formula does "7 times" equal 1,000 years? Surely one that is less complicated than the JW mathematical formula that converts "7 times" into 2,520 years. Am I saying that this "Nebuchadnezzar = Satan" interpretation is the "correct" interpretation of Daniel 4? No, I am only saying that if Daniel 4 was intended by God to one day find a "larger fulfillment," this "Nebuchadnezzar = Satan" interpretation seems much more likely to me to one day become that fulfillment than the JW "Nebuchadnezzar = God's righteous earthly rule" interpretation. Mike

Leolaia

Mike....The Nebuchadnezzer = Satan interpretation you mentioned actually enjoyed some currency in the history of interpretation of Daniel, ch. 4. The first thing that people noticed is the similarity between Daniel 4 and Isaiah 14, where the Babylonian king is ridiculed as Helal ben Shahar, or "Lucifer son of Dawn", who experiences a similar fall from power. Jewish rabbinic exegesis associated the two texts together (cf. Mekhilta de Rabbi Ishmael, Shirta 6), and Origin reportedly refered to Nebuchadnezzar as a symbol of the Devil. This, of course, was a minority view overall.

Daniel 4:10-17

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