James Thomas . . ."don't Bogart that joint my friend, pass it over again."
Donald Duck and Jehovah (from the book "Jehovah Unmasked")
by JamesThomas 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tetrapod.sapien
You can fool yourself with ideas that give you comfort but are they factual in the light of eternity?
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Satanus
Hey shiner
You are arguing against actual experience while you are armed w only words, theory (very old theory), empty, hollow words that echo endlessly as they must in that inflated skull of yours. You are trying to sell a teaspoon of really old, stale water which you got from somebody else which he got from somebody else to somebody who has his own well.
S
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JamesThomas
You can fool yourself with ideas that give you comfort but are they factual in the light of eternity?
You know Rex, that's well said. Have you ever ask yourself that question? I'm a fool so it matters not what I say, What say you?
Would you like to partake in a little experiment within yourself that the difference between idea and actuality may be clearly exposed?
Sit still and bring up within your minds eye all that you have learned and presently believe about God. Take your time. Can you see that all of it is conceptual images and phrases and words? All of it thought and idea? Notice too that none of it is you because you are watching it. All beliefs passed down to you are but idea, and not fact/real/actual/true. Can you see this? A thought about a tree, is not a tree, as a belief about God, is not God.
So, what is true? What is factual? What is unquestionably, unequivically and undeniably real?
What is factual, what is true is the conscious-awareness without which there would be nothing. What is true, is That which is closest and most intimately self and being. Do you see this? Are you aware of awarness?
Look close and notice that the conscious-awarness is not idea, thought or belief. It, is pure and all thought and things just move though it like clouds across a pristine sky.
So, here ya go. We have discovered a crystalline pool of fact and actuality, so close, so immediate. Where do you feel is the best place to continue to look for truth/God? In books of ideas, beliefs, and mental concepts which are not factual? Or deeper into what is true, already?
Perhaps here, in actual beingness we can discover what the phrase "God" really and truly points to. Perhaps here, can be discovered what is ultimately significant. Not a murderous deity outside of us, expressed by words, idea and thought, but rather the foundational conscious and pristine reality of our own eternal Being.
Do you see? What I see doesn't matter. Do you see?
j
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Shining One
Let’s get one thing straight before I go into your diatribe, Terry. You are guilty of the very same logical errors that foist on Greg Koukl's article. You pretend that you do not reason in circularity yet you end up doing just that. You seem to think that logic games are all this is about then you burst into emotion and anger. I know because I do the same thing.
The goal of 'apologia' is to provide a reasonable explanation for what we as Christians believe. You have a right to an opinion but you do not have the right to the moral high ground. You do not. You are not perfect, nor are your ideas neither is your idea of morality perfect. You cannot use simplistic ideas to condemn the dealings of nations and humanity by ignoring the context of the culture and the age that they lived in.
<<From Greg Koukl: Can God create something and then destroy what He's created>>
From Terry: All of Shining One's argument devolves on the issue of POWER. The strong can dominate the weak and the most POWER is reserved for this "God" entity.
<<NO, the 'strong do not have justification to dominate the weak'. We are a CREATION, Terry. Our very length of days is determined by God to begin with. Greg clearly outlines the difference between Him and us.
Shining One uses the preferred word: prerogative. But, that word doesn't address the source of the empowerment of reserving something for one's self alone. The power to crush is the power to stop. What is a bully, after all? One who wields power on whim to the detriment of any who oppose his capricious will.
<<There's your first straw man, Terry. You are making a comparison in human terms that clearly leaves out the right of the creator versus the created. You compare 'apples' to 'oranges' in order to make your argument seem reasonable.>>
From Terry: The history of the world is a power struggle. The stronger sex has dominated the weaker sex and, embarrassed at having been so blatant about it, points to "God's Will" in the matter as the excuse. But, it is raw power and nothing less.
<<This is a history of mankind, with man dominating man and that is another topic that is addressed in scripture. You are here no doubt claiming that scripture cannot be true because you or I don't like what it says. More straw and no substance, you appeal to pity. Can a God who is holy and righteous express His wrath upon His own creation for their own heinous acts against their fellow humans, especially since they were well warned?>>
From Terry: The nation with the mighty army dictates to the weaker nation with impunity.
<<The forces of good must remain stronger than that of evil or the corruption inherent to all results in the victory of evil.>>
From Terry: The governance of a social group stems in the final analysis on the force of the rule of law by arms. The death penalty is wielded as a power reserved unto the court through a due process according to a written constitution.
<<The death penalty removes offenders from society who have used their strength and cunning to kill and dominate the weaker ones of society. Without the 'sword' there would be no justice, Terry. Librarians would not have any libraries to keep without the sword of justice and the rule of law. Perhaps we should have death row inmates keep company with you Terry?>>
From Terry: But, be that as it may....GOD as concept is the ultimate willingness to wield power and disavow the culpability.
<<More and more straw. God is the ultimate arbiter of justice. He provides the creation a life and allows the existence of evil so that man can ultimately choose life with God. God also has provided a savior for the eternal soul of all of mankind who respond to the call from God. When and where one dies is not relevant in the light of eternity.>>
From Terry: God made me do it. He alone can make me do it and leave my hands clean of responsibility. Why? Ummm, well, he's GOD!
<<So that is the Hebrews motive, they want to pass the buck to God? LOL that’s the reason for the historical record of scripture? Is that truly what you are saying? If that is the case why does it not leave out the defeats like all of the other ancient cultures who 'beat their chests' and show how tough they are?>>
From Terry: Not much of an answer when you get right down to it.
<<Right, because your reasoning lacks logic.>>
From Terry: The thing missing from this statement is the faintest understanding of MORAL really is! Shining One seems to think that something is MORAL if God does it or commands it and that is all there is to it. But, this madness is demonstrably an error.
<<What is your standard for morality, Terry. Where do you get it from?>>
From Terry: THE STANDARD OF MORALITY IS MAN'S LIFE ITSELF.
<<Wait a minute. The subject of morality cannot be addressed in a short internet post. Especially from someone like you who HAS NOT ABSOLUTE STANDARD FOR MORALITY.>>
From Terry: But, religious belief turns this upside down and makes man's life without purpose EXCEPT AS A SLAVE of the WILL of others who purport to represent GOD.
<<Again, where is the basis for your morality? Which religion are you talking about? What about all of us being slaves to sin, which is IMMORALITY? My Lord has set me free! 'The truth shall set you free". Are you a sinner or a self-righteous, self-appointed paragon of virtue?>>
From Terry: You will never find yourself serving God. You will only find yourself obeying whims of men who CLAIM to speak for God.
<<Terry, get a grip. How can you read the beatitudes and get this kind of thing from Christianity?>>
From Terry: These crimes against humanity are committed by humanity under the banner of heaven's will.
<<What about the child sacrifice these people were practicing and teaching to their children? What about the repeated warnings over 400 years asking these people to repent of sending their children into the 'fires of Moloch’s belly'? What if this corruption had not been rooted out, would it still be around today? YOU BETTER BET YOUR LIFE IT WOULD. Evil will absolutely win out unless it is stamped out by the forces of good and sometimes there is carnage. But then, we choose to live independently of God, which is where it all begins. It begins with our idea that we as man can do whatever we will and then whine about God 'allowing evil' in our own selfish pride.>>
Shining One says:
God is the author of life; therefore He has the prerogative to take life whenever He wants. That is His prerogative. It is only immoral when human beings exercise prerogatives that are not theirs, that are God's alone.
From Terry: You'll only see God's hand puppets taking life in his Name. The invisibleness of this vapor of an entity (God) is a clue as to who really does the dirty work. The representation of an historical GOD who crushes men under his will is an illusion of man's mind. GOD is the delusional construct of men who do not take responsibility for their own actions and wish to paint a pretty role for themselves as mere servants.
<<Then what is the meaning of life, since you are the one who seems to have the self appointed moral high ground? >>
From Terry: Shining One seeks to escape responsibility by excusing God. But, the God he excuses is his own illusion and serves his purpose well. God is our alter-ego projected outward and hidden invisibly by rhetorical fallacy.
<<And you know my psyche, you know who I am from a few internet posts? How do you know that you yourself are not 'projecting' your own motives onto me?>>
From Terry: We alone make our lives what they are. Our morality is measured by how we advance humanity and create nobility of purpose in our deeds.
<<Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth. Does that sound familiar? We are all the product of your upbringing, with a natural bent toward selfishness and corruption cannot help it. I have seen the changes in my life and the lives of others that 'put the lie' to your arrogant assumptions. I can do anything through Christ who strengthens me.>>
From Terry: The opposite of that is to crush and destroy under the banner of an invisible "other".
<<Like radical Islamists. Do you ignore them, Terry? Do you think that you would have your cherished freedom in a country NOT run by a majority of Christians? Or, at lease those who are guided by biblical morality?>>
From Terry: It is responsibility that makes us human. The injection of "God" into any argument is to abandon morality and escape responsibility.
<<It is the injection of God, in the form of Jesus Christ that makes us moral and responsible.>>
Rex -
JamesThomas
Are you trying to 'bait' or offend those of us who love God and are called according ot His purpose? If I posted some article like this that villified your father or mother would you not be offended? I love my lord that much and more.
Rex, then rejoice to hear that your Beloved is infinitely closer than the Bible makes it out to be. Let go of all disparaging, diminutive and distancing beliefs about God. Let go of all ideas/beliefs, and discover what is the reality of your own true Identity. Your Beloved, is that close; and not so tiny as to be separate and far away as you have been taught.
j
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trevor
Shining One
In another thread Little Toe kindly explained to you how to highlight other peoples posts in the cream boxes to ‘make your posts more readable.’ You continued to post on the same thread without acknowledging his advice or trying to apply it. You still continue on in your own peculiar way despite clear evidence all around you that there is another way, a better way, to progress.
It seems this is the way you are and you will ignored all advice, evidence and help offered. People on this thread are actually trying to help you!The idea that your way is not the best is an unthinkable concept. This could explain why you find it so hard to demonstrate the flexibility that is required to alter your set ideas and advance into the light.
Those two fictitious characters, Donald Duck and Jehovah, have the same problem! But then, as you worship and adore the latter, it is not surprising that you emulate him.
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jwfacts
Great post.
I still suffer from guilt everytime that I think of God in the light you paint, yet the bible gives no other way to understand him.
Long before I doubted the WTS I struggled with the Witness concept of why God permits suffering. The claim man has free will is baseless. In reality, if you do not do as God wills, he will destroy you, sooner or later. Therefore we do not have free will, so why pretend we do and allow 6000 years of suffering. He could have just created humans in the first place with the ability to do exactly as he wants, because in the new system that is all he will allow anyway.
I am starting to have to accept the fact that the bible is not inspired, and that it is fine not to agree with the agressive vindictive God that it paints. -
Shakita
The point of my response was that God, who is the Author of life, also has the prerogative to take life any time He wants; and it's immoral for us to take life because we don't have that prerogative, but it's okay for God to do so because that's His job, so to speak. I mentioned that we have a common sense awareness of this because when someone begins to act frivolously or attempt to do so with regards to the taking of human life, or even in genetic engineering--trying to build life or make life happen--we say that one ought not do that because it's not right for man to play God. Well, if we say that it's not right for man to play God in taking human life or manipulating life, it seems to acknowledge that it's okay for God to do so because that's His job. It's God's job to do those things about life and death.
Rex, your line of reasoning turns God into a megolamaniacal monster that takes pleasure in murdering people whenever he gets the hankering to do so. If we are to agree with your view of God, then we humans are far more merciful, understanding, insightful and just than the God that is supposed to be superior to us in all of these areas.
So, God has the prerogative to take human life any time he wants? I see. Why is it OK for God to do something that would be offensive and immoral to most human beings? Are you saying that humans are superior to God? We humans would find it illegal, immoral and disgusting for a human to take another human life just because they felt that it was their prerogative to do so. Oh, I get it, It's OK if God does something illegal, immoral and disgusting because he is God and has the prerogative to give human life or take human life whenever he wants to because he is God. And you want to worship this monster?
In a court of law the accused is given the opportunity to defend himself. A jury of his peers decide whether the evidence points to his guilt or his innocence. I realize that this system is an imperfect one because sometimes the guilty are freed and the innocent are imprisoned. At least the accused gets the opportunity to prove their innocence if that is the case and not be subject to a summary punishment.
If we are to believe that the Bible accurately pictures the omnipotent God then that God kills the innocent along with the guilty and encourages his followers to be brutal, merciless, vindictive and murderous. That is a God of love that we are to worship?
When the Israelites were taking over the land of Canaan they were commanded by God to slaughter all of the nations that were in that land. If that particular nation accepted an offer of peace then the nation wouild be spared and the subjugated people would become slaves.
Deutoronomy 20:10-18 highlights these issues:
10 When you march up to a city, makes it people an offer of peace.
11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and work for you. (So, God is advocating the subjugation of an entire people and he supports slavery)
12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. (Wouldn't the normal human reaction be to defend oneself from an agressor attempting to take over their land and their freedoms?)
13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
So, God is advocating the wanton slaughter of every man in the city. Think of the horrific consequences of such a holocaust. All of the thousands of women and children that would lose their husbands and fathers. Imagine the devastating effect upon the pysche of all the remaining survivors of this slaughter. Evidently, God is actually the father of the holocaust if we are to belileve the Bible's depiction of God.
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.
What! God couldn't think of another way to solve this problem? If these Canaanites were so reprehensible, the only solution was to kill every last adult male in the city? Couldn't an omniscient God come up with some other solution than the holocaust of an entire people?
15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
I feel so close to God knowing that his way of solving problems is to murder all the males in whatever city that dares balk at giving up their territories.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Damnnnnnnn! God got tired of specifying what human gets to live and what human gets to die. Kill them all and let God sort them out. Oh wait, God laughs, I am God. He had a good belly laugh over that one. So, the only solution to this problem of the wayward Canaanites that this loving, omniscient God could come up with was: "KILL THEM ALL." It's too hard to figure out a more merciful solution to the problem.
17 Completely destroy them---the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites---as the Lord your God has commanded you.
Do you get the message all you Israelites? There is no more ambiguity. Just kill all those lowlifes and you'll be alright in my book.
18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the lord your God.
Some of the Canaanites were involved in the sacrifice of their own children. Certainly this was a disgusting practice. Why not bring to justice those persons that were guilty of the murder of their own children? Those adults practicing pedophila should have been punished for their crimes. My point is that those Canaanites that were involved in crimes should have been brought to justice. Why should every last human being be slaughtered for the crimes of the few? Why should an entire city or race of people be slaughtered for the crimes of a minority of the people.
Could we imagine what would happen today if a dominant country decided to take over the territory of a foreign nation and slaughter all the males of that nation? The entire world would be in an outrage and rightfully so. Then suppose that the victors then took all the remaining wives to be their wives? Those actions would be the most disgusting and reprehensible offenses against humanity. How would the actions of this dominant nation be any different than the actions of Nazis during World War II. The hoped for destruction of an entire race.
Deutoronomy 21:10-14:
10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your god delivers them into your hands and you take captives,
11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as you wife.
12 Bring her into your home and shave her head, trim her nails
13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when she was captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.
14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.
So the God of the Bible is advocating kidnapping, rape and adultery. I thought that the God of love was against all those things. But hey, slaughter her husband in war as one of the hated Canaanites and voila, those piddling little crimes of kidnapping, rape and adultery carry no weight. Why, this drooling male is just following God's edict to capture all the women as plunder and heck, if she doesn't exactly fit the bill, get rid of her and get another. Sheesh! There are thousands more women where she came from.
There are many inconsistencies about the God of the bible. He commands that to murder another is wrong, but allows murder to take place if it is committed against the Canaanites. Adultery is wrong, except when the Israelite male takes the plunder from one of the slaughtered males of the Canaanites and kidnaps the remaining Canaaites women and takes her to be his wife. Even if this Israelite male decides to rid himself of this Canaanite woman and he gets another one, he still isn't committing adultery. I thought that if one got a divorce except for a case of adultery that the one getting a divorce and marrying another is an adulterer.
These scriptures at Deutoronomy are nothing more than humans giving themselves the right to do what would normally be considered egregious crimes, because supposedly they were given carte blanche by their God to commit these crimes. Wow! Isn't that convenient. Whenever you want to commit a crime, but know that what you want to do is illegal, immoral and disgusting, just claim that God gave you permission to do so. I believe Rex, that this depiction of God in the Bible is nothing more than a human invention of God that reflected the very attitudes of the persons living at that time. If this is what God is truly like, then we are subject to a God that behaves worse than the most reprehensible humans that ever walked the planet.
Mr. Shakita
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trevor
Shakita
That is a well thought out post and most thought provoking. It amazes me that Shining one continues to declare his love for this tyrant in the face of such damming evidence.
I take it you will not be voting for Jehovah at the next Watchtower Society election.