Former Bible Study Wants to Talk... (page 2)

tall penguin

I'm doing my research now. Quotes' site is incredible! I'm loving the site map. It's a great reference for all of the jw beliefs both past and present.
I realize that my first response to all of this is an emotional one. I'm feeling quite overwhelmed. I love these people very much. I was one of their first Canadian friends when they immigrated. I consider them family. I really want them to make an informed choice here. And I hope I can do the information justice.
Thanks for all your help. Keep the advice coming. It's very useful.
tp

Honesty

Especially focus on issues regarding the false prophesies and that scripture that "if a person utters a prophesy and it does not come true" then they aren't a true prophet. I always forget where that is.

Deut 18:20-22

20 But the prophet who dares to speak in My name a message I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods—that prophet must die.’

21 You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the Lord has not spoken?’

22 When a prophet speaks in the Lord’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Lady Lee

Thanks Honesty

I have put it in a word file to hang on to

hubert

TP, Try not to overwhelm them with information. It may only confuse them. Bring it all, in a folder, but pick out a couple of subjects that you think may hit home with them.

Another subject is the 587/607 dates, seeing they must be into a lot of Bible verse studying.

Just pick a couple of subjects you are also comfortable with, and go from there. Play it by ear.

Hubert

Mysterious

If they do believe you and your reasons for leaving Id think they would be more greatful to you for admitting you had made a mistake being a JW and wanting to help them than bitter that you were the one that got them to study in the first place.

If you think about "anti-witnessing" in the same way you think of witnessing, yes you will feel unqualified in light of how long ago you left. However, why not think of it simply as sharing the journey in your life with someone. It is NOT your job to convince them what to do, you are simply telling them how it was for you and letting them make their own minds up.

Double Edge

I would keep it simple.... if they check out everything as has been suggested in the posts above, I think they'll come to their own conclusions...it would certainly make them pause and think a lot. Secondly, as one who has never been a JW, if I were studying, I think it would be very interesting if someone told me that the 'original' JWs (original, main beliefs) are still around, meaning The Bible Students (they have a website)... they've never really changed... THAT would certainly make me wonder, who among the two is right, or wrong...I sure wouldn't want to make a mistep.... my 2 cents...

D.E.

yesidid

Hi tp,

I was a loyal Witness for over fifty years, (from baptism). I saw many of the changes, the1975 debacle, the "generation" flip flop, the"alternative service" back flip etc etc. However the thing that"done me in" was realizing that they were dishonest and deliberately deceptive. They have deliberately tried to rewrite their history to make themselves look better.

They have deceived people into thinking they forecast Jesus return in 1914. This is in total contravention of the facts.

The quotes below (thanks to MacHislop) show that up to at least 1929 they were teaching what they had believed since 187?, that Christ had arrived long before 1914and had been ruling since 1874.

1923

The Watchtower, March 1, 1923, p. 67

The Scriptures show that his second presence was due in 1874…This proof shows that the Lord has been present since 1874 …"
1924

* The Watchtower, January 1, 1924, p. 5

Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874 … "

1926

From the book : " Creation " published 1926, page 312

"To understand the events concerning the Lord's second presence

from 1874 to 1914 requires one to be spiritually minded..."

1928

From the book "The Harp of God", by J.F. Rutherford, published by the I.B.S.A., the "Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, N.Y. U.S.A."

and the Peoples Pulpit Association, Brooklyn,N.Y. "(1928 edition). page 251 and paragraph 430 :

"It would be reasonable to expect him

to be present some time before he would take unto himself his great power to reign. His presence beginning in 1874, he has carried on his harvest work from 1878 forward, but has not interrupted the Gentile dominion until that dominion should end. The end of the Gentile rule, therefore, would mark necessarily The end of the world. We should expect, then, to find 1914 as the beginning of the end of the old world or Satan's organization. And that this would take place during the presence of the Lord he definitely stated."

1929

* From the book " Prophecy ‘ published in the year 1929, pages 65, 66

"The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in

1874 AD. This proof is specifically set out in the booklet entitled Our Lord's Return."

From the book ' Proclaimers…' published in 1993

*** jv 632 28 Testing and Sifting From Within ***

"Based on the

premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events later, they also concluded that if Jesus baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King. They also thought they would be given their heavenly reward at that time. When that did not occur, they concluded that since Jesus anointed followers were to share with him in the Kingdom, the resurrection to spirit life of those already sleeping in death began then. It was also reasoned that the end of Gods special favor to natural Israel down to 36 C.E. might point to 1881 as the time when the special opportunity to become part of spiritual Israel would close."

What follows appears to give the impression that it was always
believed and taught that Christ would/did return in 1914.
As examples:

***
w52 11/1 p. 658 A Better Basis for Belief ***

"16 As for the time of

Christ’s second presence, Daniel’s prophecy is again
the one that gives the chronology for it. (Dan. 4:16)
It was figured out as
pointing to A.D. 1914, and
The Watchtower called notice to the
significance of 1914 in the year 1879.
"

….

Quote from the year

1954:

*** w54 6/15 p. 370 The Revelation of Jesus Christ ***

4 "Why, then, do the nations not realize and accept the approach of this climax of judgment? It is because they have not heeded the world-wide advertising of

Christ's return and his second presence. Since long before World War I Jehovah's witnesses pointed to 1914 as the time for this great event to occur .And since 1914 physical evidences establishing this truth have been pointed to repeatedly in the columns of The Watchtower. "

* Quote from the year

1965:

--The Watchtower ' ,

July 15th, 1965 page 428

"Jehovah's Advancing Organization"

As we look back over the years, we can clearly see how God's organization in modern times has progressed in understanding. For example, it learned that Christ's second presence was to be in the spirit, and not in the flesh as many professed Christians believe. His rule would be from the heavens. This was a new revelation of great importance to God's people who had been

anxiously awaiting his second presence toward the end of the nineteenth century.

By using the literature, it can be said without any doubt that brother Charles Taze Russel and all the other Bible Students were not "anxiously awaiting his second presence

toward the end of the nineteenth century"; for the simple fact that they believed and preached that it had already occurred years past in 1874.

·

Quote from the year 1966:

*** w66 2/15 p. 103 Christ’s Return—Do You Know What to Look For? ***

Compare this with what has taken place since the year 1914. For over thirty years before that date and for half a century since, Jehovah’s witnesses have pointed to the year 1914 as the time for the end of "the appointed times of the nations" and the time in which Christ would begin his Kingdom rule. (Luke 21:24)

The greatest Man who ever lived. 1991

***

gt chap. 132 At God’s Right Hand ***

"A careful study of Bible prophecies, including Jesus’ own prophecy regarding the last days, reveals that "the Lord’s day" began in the history-making year 1914, yes, within this generation! So it was in 1914 that Jesus returned invisibly, without public fanfare and with only his faithful servants being aware of his return. In that year Jehovah gave Jesus the command to go subduing in the midst of his enemies."

Now I ask you how could his "faithful servants" be aware of his return in 1914 when they were believing and teaching in 1914 and for another fifteen years that he had returned in 1874.

Quote from the year 1998:

*** w98 9/15 p. 15 Waiting in "Eager Expectation"

"The eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God."—ROMANS 8:19.

THE situation of true Christians today resembles that of the first-century Christians. A prophecy helped Jehovah’s servants of those days to identify when the Messiah was due to appear. (Daniel 9:24-26)

The same prophecy foretold Jerusalem’s destruction but contained no elements enabling Christians to know in advance when that city would be destroyed. (Daniel 9:26b, 27) Similarly, a prophecy providentially caused sincere 19th-century Bible students to be in expectation. By linking the "seven times" of Daniel 4:25 with "the times of the Gentiles," they anticipated that Christ would receive Kingdom power in 1914.

This is their latest effort at deception and rewriting of history.

2005

"What does the Bible really teach?"

starting on page 84: "22 When Jesus told his followers to pray, "Let your Kingdom come" it was clear that the Kingdom had not come at that time.…… There was a waiting period.

23 For how long? During the 19th century, sincere Bible students calculated that the waiting period would end in 1914……. World events that began in 1914 confirm that the calculation of these sincere Bible students was correct. The fulfillment of Bible prophecy shows that in 1914, Christ became King and God’s heavenly Kingdom began to rule." Faulty Bible interpretation is one thing. But their deliberate deception and rewriting of history are yet another. That’s really what pushed me out.

yesidid

Sorry couldn't get the formatting right.

zagor

In my experience Chinese accept study with witnesses mainly to learn english anyway, very few are interested in changing religion, at least here.

tall penguin

Thanks to all for your advice and support.
yesidid, thanks for that extensive research. Yes, the rewriting of their history is something I intend to address.
zagor,
While many Chinese do indeed study with jws to learn English, this particular family that I studied with have already devoted 3 years to studying, attended meetings and have even preached to others informally. In our last phone conversation, the wife informed me that she felt that this was the "true religion." They've adopted "theocratic" language and seem very deep into the indoctrination process. I'm interested to hear how far in they really are as I haven't seen them in over a year.
I'll be going to see them tomorrow. I'll post tomorrow night if I'm not too tired.
:) tp

gladdy

Good luck, you are very brave. I will say a prayer for you. That is going to be very hard but they must have some doubts, I can't imagine they would want to listen to any info against the jws. ,mmmmmmm maybe not so hard afterall. They may be on this board soon. Are you going alone?

Former Bible Study Wants to Talk...

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