Berry Case on Great Crowd

by Kent 17 Replies latest jw friends

Kent

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Berry Sisters Take WT Society to Court

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Author Topic: Berry Sisters Take WT Society to Court
ManofTrueGod
Moderator
Posts: 264
From:Manila, Philippines
Registered: Apr 2000
posted August 10, 2001 09:57 AM Staff Use Only:
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The mother of the Berry children who were victims of abuse took the three elders of their congregation and the WT Society to court defended by well-known lawyers who handle abuse cases Janine Gawryl and Jeffrey Anderson.
The case claims that the policies and practices of the JWs lent protection to abusers.
While I find the allegation against policies and practices of the WT Society to be baseless as it relates to alleged protection of abusers, I cannot comment on the specifics hurled against the three elders.
This must be hurting our friends in the NE area. And if the wires pick this up across America, this is something opposers will pounce on against us in the field.
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tammigotchi
Member
Posts: 47
From:Humboldt, Nebraska, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
posted August 10, 2001 08:30 PM Staff Use Only:
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MOTG, was there a link to that article?
Tammy
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tammigotchi
Member
Posts: 47
From:Humboldt, Nebraska, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
posted August 10, 2001 08:31 PM Staff Use Only:
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MOTG, was there a link to that article?
Tammy
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Prov.18:24b "...but there exists a friend sticking closer than a brother."
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ManofTrueGod
Moderator
Posts: 264
From:Manila, Philippines
Registered: Apr 2000
posted August 10, 2001 11:22 PM Staff Use Only:
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Yes, but I got it from personal news subscription. I don't think you can access it directly. It was a press release from a group called SNAP.
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Cassie
Member
Posts: 1122
From:
Registered: Apr 2000
posted August 11, 2001 06:29 AM Staff Use Only:
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Here's a business site that has it:
http://search.office.com/display_news.asp?doc_id=PR20010807CGTU052
Two Women Sue Jehovah's Witnesses Over Sexual Abuse
Source: PR Newswire
Tuesday August 7 5:05pm
Charge That National Church Policies "Protect" Predators New York Headquarters, Local Congregation and Convicted Molester Named As Defendants
MANCHESTER, N.H., Aug. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- The official policies and practices of the Jehovah's Witnesses church violate New Hampshire's mandatory child abuse reporting laws and led to the sexual molestation of at least two girls, according to a civil lawsuit to be filed tomorrow in Hillsborough County Superior Court in Manchester NH....
Here is another link:
http://www.fosters.com/citizen/news2001/August/08/ap0808b.htm
[This message has been edited by Cassie (edited August 11, 2001).]
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ioneblair
Member
Posts: 98
From:Philadelphia, Pa, USA
Registered: Jan 2001
posted August 11, 2001 07:47 PM Staff Use Only:
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Like most of us I don't know details. My question is though, where are they going? The world is darkness and only JWs are in the light.
EVEN IF mistakes are made last week's WT mentioned "elders make mistakes that at times may affect us personally. Nevertheless, Jehovah is using such men as
shepherds of his flock". I have personally experienced this with elders. Years later, one apologized to me.
This organization has the truth. These people are looking at men, seeing things from a human standpoint. Not that I am making light of such serious charges. I am a mother and the hurt and pain of this done to your child and done to you is enormous. YET there is no pain, nothing that happens to us that Jehovah cannot help us cope with, deal with and endure, going on until the permanent solutions. Until "the former things are not brought to mind". Besides that, Jesus is aware of everything done in the congregation and keeps the congregation clean and has personal concern how the body shepherds his sheep. They answer to him and he deals appropiately with them.
Lawsuits and money, while bringing a "feeling" of justice will not give you the inner peace, comfort, care and coping skills you need to deal with all the fallout of anger, disillusionment, etc. from these
horrible acts. Now is the time especially for staying close to Jehovah and his organization.
This is not to say that laws of the land that dictate prosecution of people committing such act should not be enforced. I am all for it.
------------------
Agape
gwen
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rbrown1205
Member
Posts: 92
From:Tuskegee AL US
Registered: Oct 2000
posted August 11, 2001 09:05 PM Staff Use Only:
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I was just wondering -- mind you, I don't know the details of this particular case --
but, if a family member, even one of Jehovah's Witnesses, is aware of abuse by an elder or any other member toward any children, can he or she turn that elder in to the police?
What the judicial committee does is one thing, all that it can do is disfellowship or reprove the person, but there is no rule saying that the person, no matter who he is, can be arrested and jailed, is there?
I am mentioning this because I found a derogatory news article that referred to a case similar to this one, and an elder was reported to say that the guilty party could be turned in for arrest by other involved parties. I did not copy the article because it was so biased against witnesses, and it wasn't worth reproducing.
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wispy1
Member
Posts: 418
From:FL
Registered: Apr 2000
posted August 11, 2001 09:09 PM Staff Use Only:
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I can understand why these girls wanted "justice." I too am a survivor of abuse. I know that the scriptures do say not to be taking our brothers to court. I also recall an article by the WT Society saying that our organization is NOT a haven for criminals. And, unlike the Catholic church, criminals are not granted "refuge" upon walking into the KH.
They brought out that a criminal should be dealt with by the laws of the land. And these girl's father was a practicing pedophile, which breaks God's laws first, and man's laws second.
I do not know that I would have sued the elders or the Brothers. Our brothers back then were ill equipped to handle such cases. The things that elders handled in "the olden days" had to do with lying, stealing, cheating, etc.. Today the cases facing our brothers is WAY OUT THERE in scope. Many things that are intangible...like verbal abuse.
Things have escalated to conditions like dealing with brothers and sisters having severe depression, suicidal thinking, and just a host of outward signs of past traumas that manifest themselves in various mental and physical forms. It is much more difficult to know exactly HOW to aid these crushed reeds.
I am confident that Jehovah will help our brothers to render aid in a positive manner.
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The main thing is loving Jehovah...all the rest is icing!
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Bodark
New Member
Posts: 21
From:Portland, Oregon
Registered: Jun 2001
posted August 11, 2001 09:30 PM Staff Use Only:
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One thing everyone should be clear on. There is an absolute right to go to the police or whatever secular authority is appropriate in these cases. Sometimes misguided people have indicated otherwise, that seems to be part of the problem in the Berry case, that state has a requirement for reporting allegations of child abuse that includes ministers, which would also apply to Elders, apparently these particular Elders did not make such a report.
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jpfolks
Administrator
Posts: 40
From:Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2001
posted August 11, 2001 09:49 PM Staff Use Only:
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This case has garnered some attention in the news media as have other cases of suspected child molestation. Even though Paul Berry has been convicted he is appealing the conviction and maintains his innocence. As to whether he is guilty or innocent of the charges leveled against him Jehovah will be the final judge of that.
Child molestation has been a serious problem in some churches. The finger of accusation has been pointed at the Watch Tower Society now. We will leave it up to them to deal with the accusations.
I am going to close this thread now. If anyone wishes to read the news articles pertaining to this matter you are free to do so.
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Yakki Da
Kent
"The only difference between a fool and the JW legal department is that a fool might be sympathetic ."
Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://watchtower.observer.org
Jeremy Bravo

These people need a wake up call.
I took note of this poster:
Like most of us I don't know details. My question is though, where are they going? The world is darkness and only JWs are in the light.
EVEN IF mistakes are made last week's WT mentioned "elders make mistakes that at times may affect us personally. Nevertheless, Jehovah is using such men as shepherds of his flock". I have personally experienced this with elders. Years later, one apologized to me.
This organization has the truth. These people are looking at men, seeing things from a human standpoint. Not that I am making light of such serious charges. I am a mother and the hurt and pain of this done to your child and done to you is enormous. YET there is no pain, nothing that happens to us that Jehovah cannot help us cope with, deal with and endure, going on until the permanent solutions. Until "the former things are not brought to mind". Besides that, Jesus is aware of everything done in the congregation and keeps the congregation clean and has personal concern how the body shepherds his sheep. They answer to him and he deals appropiately with them.
Lawsuits and money, while bringing a "feeling" of justice will not give you the inner peace, comfort, care and coping skills you need to deal with all the fallout of anger, disillusionment, etc. from these
horrible acts. Now is the time especially for staying close to Jehovah and his organization.
This is not to say that laws of the land that dictate prosecution of people committing such act should not be enforced. I am all for it.
I'm getting the same old mixed message here... God leads the organization and uses elders to shepherd, but when something BAD happens, our "human standpoint" can't understand why sometihng like this happened in God's organization.
SO WHICH IS IT?
Just my thoughts.
Jer.
sf

I can see the kingdom hall now...elders flooded with questions regarding this case. Most excellent!
Here is what I have called "fallout" since the beginning:
"...Today the cases facing our brothers is WAY OUT THERE in scope. Many things that are intangible...like verbal abuse.
Things have escalated to conditions like dealing with brothers and sisters having severe depression, suicidal thinking, and just a host of outward signs of past traumas that manifest themselves in various mental and physical forms. It is much more difficult to know exactly HOW to aid these crushed reeds."
-----------
Aid? Just what kind of "aid" will left this "crushing" WEIGHT?
Let's ponder the remedies......
sKally, well-equipped for "the fight" klass
alliwannadoislive

thank you kent for posting this - can't bring myself to go through all that stuff at greatcrowd ... how could we all have been so naiive huh ? ... leaves me feeling angry for all those poor friends and their innocent children ... sigh ...
Pathofthorns

It is good when dubs can talk freely amongst themselves. It only shows the mindset that has been put inside them. I wonder if the judge and jury in the Berry case would find such exchanges interesting?
When there is no WT PR guy or WT Legal guy present, it is amazing how honestly the dubs speak their minds about how they really feel.
Path
SlayerLayer

They are only free to talk about it as long as the moderator lets them. Notice that the thread was closed. Thank god Simon doesn't do that crap.
lauralisa

Denial is the opiate of the rank and file
Used to be "there"... shaking head in abject disgust....
It's only water from a stranger's tear (Peter Gabriel)
TweetieBird

This one paragraph sums up the mentality of the majority of JW's...
"Like most of us I don't know details. My question is though, where are they going? The world is darkness and only JWs are in the light.
EVEN IF mistakes are made last week's WT mentioned "elders make mistakes that at times may affect us personally. Nevertheless, Jehovah is using such men as
shepherds of his flock". I have personally experienced this with elders. Years later, one apologized to me."
Typical of people under mind-control. They are convinced that there is no where else to go, that if they leave the organization they will suffer all kinds of evils.
Whenever someone leaves the organization and maybe their life is less than perfect, witnesses are quick to jump on the bandwagon about how they brought it on themselves by leaving Jehovah's organization. However, if someone's life is crap that is still loyal to the borg, well, then that is persecution.
"By doubting we come at truth" -Cicero
MadApostate

This repeated JW statement that Jah is using Elders as shepards of His flock, even including those that abuse the sheep, brings back to mind the Marvin Shilmer thread in which MS refused to publicly acknowledge the legal principles I was trying to direct him to. (He was making an issue out of a non-issue or at least small issue.)
I gave up in that thread.
Under American "Agency" law, just because the Agent acts outside the bounds of their Principal-granted authority they do not necessariy cease to be Agents at that point.
One instance is where the Principal becomes aware of the Agent's acts and fails to do anything about such. The Principal is then responsible for that misdeed and any future misdeeds.
Another instance is where the Agent acts beyond the Principal-granted authority, but the third parties whom the Agent is dealing with have good reason to assume that the Agent is actually acting within the authority limits. This is called "apparent agency" because the third parties reasonably believed the act to be within the agent's authority level based on past experience.
This is why Bodies/Committees of Elders will ALWAYS be considered AGENTS of the WTS. MS doesn't have to jump through hoops to prove such. Since Elders are appointed by the WTS, and any committee or other group is acting on behalf of the WTS, and WTS teachings are such that the R&F are required to follow the Elders directions subject to penalty, THEN EVEN IF such a group fails to follow WTS directions, the WTS is LEGALLY LIABLE for the results caused by those Elders' mistakes.
Now, to the point in this thread. By the same application of American Legal principles, (and per JWism), ELDERS are Agents of Jehovah. If Jah sees an elder mistake and does not correct it, He is responsible. IF He allows the mistake to contiue, He is responsible for those. Even IF elders act beyond Biblical bounds, Jah is responsible to those harmed, since those third parties have been taught that the Elders must be followed. So, per JWism and "agency law", Jah AND the Elders are Legally Liable for harm caused by Elders acting as Agents of Him or the WTS, EVEN IF the Elders are acting outside the bounds of their authority.
Thus, even when Elder bodies/committees fail to follow WTS directions, the Elders are still considered "agents" of the WTS, and the WTS is Legally Liable for the harm they cause.
However, this is Strictly a consideration of the "Agency" issue. In the Berry and other similar cases, there are many other issues which must be considered in reaching a final decision, not the least of which are the US Constitutional issues. It is these larger issues which MAY prevent the Berry case from succeeding.
Kent

Another instance is where the Agent acts beyond the Principal-granted authority, but the third parties whom the Agent is dealing with have good reason to assume that the Agent is actually acting within the authority limits. This is called "apparent agency" because the third parties reasonably believed the act to be within the agent's authority level based on past experience.
This is why Bodies/Committees of Elders will ALWAYS be considered AGENTS of the WTS.

They will ALWAYS? Seems you're both judge and jusry here. I have been in quite a lot of court cases in Norway, as a journalist, and even if something might seem clear - it's not always so.
You have "ruled" that the Watchtower "reasonably believed the act to be within the agent's authority level based on past experience". How do you know the Watchtower won't let the elders take the heat to avoid being bancrupted? Why won't the Society itself risc being sentenced?
Fact is, my friend - before the jury has spoken - nobody can say nothing for certain.
Yakki Da
Kent
"The only difference between a fool and the JW legal department is that a fool might be sympathetic ."
Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://watchtower.observer.org

Berry Case on Great Crowd

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