The "we just don't know/we don't judge/etc." answer is a phenomenon that seems to have cropped up only in recent years. I think it's a lie they tell themselves so that they can think that maybe Jerhover will spare that nice guy Bill from work even though he's not a Witness or something similar.
Who will survive Armageddon? What does the WT teach?
by GoingGoingGone 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Alana
I remember being out in service as a kid and being asked point blank by a householder if it was true that JWs believed that only JWs would be 'saved' through Armageddon. I sort of stumbled a bit in my reply and the brother who was with me stated that God would read the hearts of men and that it wouldn't be man who judged....yadda yadda yadda. His main purpose was to appease the householder and not offend her with the thought that JWs thought only JWs would survive. He told me this later, that we need to be careful how we respond to questions like this....sort of like a bit of theocratic warfare.....it leaves the impression to the householder that it's God judging hearts and not just being a JW....yet, as the brother continued to say to me later, we all know that what Jehovah is reading in the hearts is if they are true JWs or not, as he said not all who claimed to be JWs would necessarily survive. So, he thought it was funny that he answered the lady's question (although in a misleading way) in a way which didn't offend her totally, while still believing that basically what she said was the truth of the matter.
I don't like dishonesty and that really left an impression on me (not a good one)....one that later came back along with other situations of hypocrisy, etc.
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misspeaches
I think it's a lie they tell themselves so that they can think that maybe Jerhover will spare that nice guy Bill from work even though he's not a Witness or something similar.
I think you'll find that these days people are going to come down pretty hard on any group claiming that they are the only ones to be saved through Armageddon. I think JW's want to believe this type of lie because it makes them feel so much better and it is more socially acceptable...
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Sheri
*** w84 7/15 31 Questions From Readers *** Questions From Readers
õ First Timothy 4:10 calls God “a Savior of all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones.” So will any unfaithful ones be saved?
No. The point is that salvation is assured particularly for those exercising faith.
The apostle Paul advised Timothy that a benefit of godly devotion is that it “holds promise of the life now and that which is to come.” (1 Timothy 4:6-8) Then Paul wrote: “For to this end we are working hard and exerting ourselves, because we have rested our hope on a living God, who is a Savior of all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones.”—1 Timothy 4:10.
God holds out to all men the possibility of salvation. As Paul wrote: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) But who will respond to the ransom, choosing life rather than death? (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) Some people reject the Christian message of salvation. In others, the ‘seed’ takes root and grows for a while, but later they let opposition, material interests or other concerns come between them and salvation.—Matthew 13:3-8.
So while the salvation God holds out is available potentially to everyone, the way things turn out will prove that salvation is particularly for “faithful ones.” The apostle Peter thus urged: “For this reason, brothers, all the more do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail.”—2 Peter 1:10; John 3:16.
*** w97 2/15 29 Questions From Readers *** Questions From Readers
“The Watchtower” of August 15, 1996, said: “In the final part of the tribulation, ‘flesh’ that has fled to Jehovah’s side will be saved.” Is that suggesting that after the first phase of the great tribulation, many new ones will come over to God’s side?
That was not the point being made.
Jesus’ words found at Matthew 24:22 will primarily be fulfilled in the future by a salvation through the first part of the coming great tribulation, the attack on religion. The article said: “Recall that ‘flesh,’ both of the anointed remnant and of the ‘great crowd,’ already will have been saved when
Such faithful ones will be in no danger when Jesus and his heavenly army act in the final part of the tribulation. But who will thus pass through that phase of the tribulation? Revelation 7:9, 14 shows that a great crowd having an earthly hope will survive. What of spirit-anointed Christians? “Questions From Readers” in The Watchtower of August 15, 1990, discussed why we cannot be dogmatic about when the remnant of anointed ones will be taken to heaven. So the recent article (August 15, 1996) left the matter open, making the general comment: “Likewise in the final part of the tribulation, ‘flesh’ that has fled to Jehovah’s side will be saved.”
As to whether any new ones may be able to learn the truth and come over to God’s side after the great tribulation begins, note Jesus’ words recorded at Matthew 24:29-31. After the outbreak of the tribulation, the sign of the Son of man will appear. Jesus said that all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves and lament. He did not say anything about people waking up to the situation, repenting, taking God’s side, and becoming true disciples.
Similarly, in the parable of the sheep and the goats, the Son of man appears and judicially separates people on the basis of what they had done or not done in the past. Jesus said nothing about people who long displayed goatlike attributes suddenly turning around and becoming like sheep. He comes to judge on the basis of what people had already proved to be.—Matthew 25:31-46.
But, again, there is no reason to be dogmatic on this point. God’s people, both of the anointed and of the great crowd, know what they have to do now—preach and make disciples. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 13:10) Right now is the period for us to take to heart the exhortation: “Working together with him, we also entreat you not to accept the undeserved kindness of God and miss its purpose. For he says: ‘In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.’ Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.”—2 Corinthians 6:1, 2.
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heathen
Personally I've always heard them refer to people that didn't listen to them or weren't interested as being goats compared to the sheep like ones and they will all be destroyed at armageddon . Jeeze I remember them claiming the cramped and narrow road to christiandoms broad and spacious path of destruction in just about every publicaton .
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Hellrider
Garybus hit it right on the spot. It`s doubletalk again. One is relatively "humane", and meant for the outside world. But every practicing JW knows what it`s all about: Noone but baptised JWs and their children will be saved on Armageddon day. It`s scare tactics again, "don`t leave, or Jehovah will kill you". And remember the other "rule": Those that have ever known "the Truth", but then rejected it, are definitely doomed to die. Funny thing, my mother and grandmother tried that one on me, when I was leaving, and I`d go, what do you mean? God can`t punish me twice, didn`t we always learn that all non-JWs who were alive on Armageddon day would be killed? They went all quiet after that.
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GoingGoingGone
You guys are great... I just showed this to my son, and to my daughter. My son's response was, 'Oh... wow...ok... cool.' So we're all good, dude...
It's hard to argue with what's in print, and I really don't want to debate with my kids. I just want to drop small hints, small facts, and let them hopefully take root. My kids need to see the falsehood in the WTS themselves. They're not going to just take my word for it, nor do I think that they should. So while I avoid being confrontational with them about the WT (which is an exercise in self-control for me!), I feel like I have to point out the inconsistencies when the opportunity presents itself.
Thanks again to everyone!
GGG
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Frogleg
Sometimes we try to go too deep. I have to agree that it is not what the JW in the next seat believes, or even the JW in Brooklyn thinks. But what person that has ever come in contact with a JW (on an official basis) would deny that JWs beieve that they are the only ones that are going to be left alive? The Borg always use the "Ark" scenario because its at the other end of the Bible from JC, and if you start thinking too hard about JC you start comming up with some scary thoughts. For example, the first person we will all meet in the "New System" will be Adolph Hitler. After all, what greater example of "God's forgiveness" and depth of JC's "sacrifice" could there be? At age 17, my youngest son got fed up, walked out of the Kingdom Hall, and never went back. Today, he's a Mormon and quite happy about it. A lot of people wanted to know why it didn't "break" my heart to see him do that. Of what possible consequence could it make? He is quite happy with what he is and what more could any parent ask for? The stupidity of the JWs became manifest when they began to confuse obedience with love. If your son is happy, kiss him and tell him how proud he makes you, not because he is a JW, but because he is happy. Trust me, he is fairly unique.
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Leolaia
Please also see the following article which is pretty dramatic:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/7/99837/1719359/post.ashx#1719359
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TD
When it comes to answering this question, the JW's commonly confuse two related, but separate issues.
There is a big difference between saying:
“We know for sure who will survive”
versus
“We know for sure who will not survive”
JW’s have never said they know for sure who will survive. They have always allowed for the possibility that even some within the ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves will be found unworthy. This is what they mean when they say that only Jehovah reads hearts.
On the other hand they have been quite explicit for many, many years on the issue of who it can definitely be said will not survive. There are the obvious and generic categories like the “wicked” and the “unrighteous,” but the WTB&TS started going far beyond that many years ago.
For example, the 1941 book Children said on page 295:
This is strong proof that only those who are in Christ and those who are of the “other sheep” of the Lord, together with the “princes”, shall survive Armageddon. All others now on the earth will die at Armageddon.
The October 15, 1952 issue of The Watchtower on page 619 said that only those in “God’s organization” would survive.
“The Scriptures speak of the avenger’s blood being hot. The heart of Christ Jesus is indeed hot with righteous indignation against those who have willfully violated God’s covenant. Like Jehu, he will proceed furiously against his enemies. (2 Ki. 9:20) This indicates that there is an urgency about fleeing to the city of refuge, God’s organization, now…….How long must these remain in the city of refuge? Until the death of the high priest, or until after Armageddon, when the last of the priestly members of Christ’s body die to join their Lord in the heavenly realm. Until that time let all dedicated servants of Jehovah make known his merciful provision for sparing unwitting manslayers, and let all men of good will, lovers of righteousness, take advantage of the merciful provision of Jehovah by fleeing to these cities of refuge, God’s organization.”
The 1953 book New Heavens And A New Earth on page 311 was even more explicit:
This baptism into the Greater Noah is what will save now and during the destructive fiery baptism of this condemned old world, provided the ones baptized into him within the ark abide in him, keeping their good conscience through faith and loyal service to God. To survive Armageddon they must stay in the New World society.
The August 15, 1953 issue of The Watchtower on page 501 reiterated the same thought:
“For anyone to forsake the organized congregation of those who are destined to survive Armageddon means for that one never to get past Armageddon into the New World and its theocratic system. Like Noah’s family, we must now get into the ark all together!”
The April 15, 1956 issue of The Watchtower on page 250 claimed that association with even “good” unbelievers could cost you your life:
“A ‘good fellow’ may be good company. But is he theocratic company? If not, then shun him. Run only with those running the race. Remember the old proverb: “Birds of a feather flock together.” You may also recall the old story of the farmer’s swan that always swam among the cranes. The cranes were destroying the farmer’s crops. So he determined to shoot them. He killed the cranes and with them also his beautiful swan, his prize bird. Do not be caught at Armageddon like this beautiful but unfortunate swan.”
The July 1 1956 issue of The Watchtower on page 401 showed that putting off baptism as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses would be a fatal error:
“So each one of you undedicated persons has today the same freedom to choose, a choice of life or death. If you deliberately refuse to dedicate yourself to Jehovah God in this judgment day of his in which we now are living, your life will end at Armageddon, if not before, as a condemned sinner without right to life and even without hope of a resurrection.
The February 1 1957 issue of The Watchtower on pages 73 and 74 showed that it wasn’t enough to simply lead a good life --- JW doctrine was a life or death matter:
“We say that the true Christian faith is the sum of beliefs concerning Jehovah God and his kingdom as delivered to us by his chosen Seed, Jesus Christ, and his disciples. But do not the peoples of Christendom also believe the same Bible? Then why is it that they do not believe the same things that Jehovah’s witnesses believe? Do not think that this is merely a matter of opinion, of private interpretation. Do not think that one can believe whatever he likes so long as he leads a good life, or that doctrinal differences do not really matter. That is a fatal error. It is just that distinction that makes all the difference between one’s surviving Armageddon and one’s perishing along with the old world.”
The July 15, 1958 issue of The Watchtower on page 439 again stressed the importance of being part of the organization:
It is not less important either, as the following article shows, that, having found one’s place in the constellation of the New World society, one should faithfully remain in it if one hopes to survive Armageddon and live forever in eternal peace and happiness.
The May 15 1960 issue of The Watchtower on page 305 reiterated the importance of JW dedication and baptism as a prerequisite for surviving Armageddon:
“If one knows he should dedicate himself to God and be baptized and does not do so, the responsibility before Jehovah is the same as if he did. The man who makes a dedication and fails will not survive Armageddon, but neither will the man who postponed dedication and never took the steps to qualify him for life. Both will be equally dead. Why be in either class?”
The February 1 1961 issue of The Watchtower on page 89 again showed that at Armageddon there would be no third group. You were either part of the New World society or you were not.
“As the spiritual cloud that envelops the earth gets darker and darker, now is the time to come out to the light enjoyed by the New World society. This light of truth has been getting brighter and brighter since Christ’s heavenly enthronement in 1914. Jehovah God and Christ Jesus, “the kings from the rising of the sun,” are preparing to gather the nations to the great battle of Armageddon. There will be no neutral position in that battle, no place to hide.”
The January 15, 1966 issue of The Watchtower on page 47 showed that regular meeting attendance was also a requirement for survival:
“Are you one of these irregular attenders? Do you know of any who are succumbing to this danger? If so, it would be an evidence of love on your part to consider with them Jehovah’s counsel and admonition on associating regularly at congregational meetings……..There is no question about our association after Armageddon, but, unless we are associating now with God’s congregation, we will not be alive to enjoy association with him, his Son and his people after Armageddon.”
The June 1, 1972 issue of The Watchtower on page 326 was quite explicit that any associated with “Christendom” would not survive:
"Any associated with Christendom who survive the destruction of false religion in the “great tribulation” will not come through to any improved, long-lived future. They will experience only the fire of Jehovah’s anger and his symbolic “sword” of judicial execution in the final part of the “great tribulation,” the “war of the great day of God the Almighty” at the world situation called Har–Magedon.—Rev. 16:14-16; 19:11-21."
The November 15, 1983 issue of The Watchtower on page 24 flatly stated that no one besides the anointed or their companions, the great crowd would survive:
“The only flesh saved out of that “great tribulation” will be, as Jesus himself stated, the dedicated “flesh” of his chosen anointed ones and of their sheeplike companions. No others are counted righteous in Jehovah’s sight”
The September 1, 1989 issue of The Watchtower on page 19 was said basically the same thing, but hedged a little with the term, "Scriptural hope".
“Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.”
The May 1, 1991 issue of The Watchtower said that no one associated with “Christendom would survive Armageddon in a particularly round-about way. First it said on page 14:
“Similarly today, “a great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep” gathered out of all nations will survive Armageddon into God’s new world. (Revelation 7:9; John 10:14-16) Only those who learn and speak the pure language will be joyful survivors.
….and then it said on page 16:
“Those who declare Jehovah’s purpose and announce his heavenly Kingdom speak the pure language as his Witnesses. They make known his name and serve him “shoulder to shoulder,” or with one consent. (Zephaniah 3:9) Though Christendom’s religions have the Bible, they do not speak the pure language or call upon God’s name in faith.”
Taken together, it was not hard to add 2 and 2.
The June 1 1992 issue of The Watchtower on page 16 quantified the “great crowd” of survivors as the number of active JW publishers:
“Last year the great crowd, now numbering more than four million, together with the small remaining band of anointed Christians, spent nearly a billion hours declaring abroad the excellencies of Jehovah. This was the best possible use of their spiritual freedom.”
The February 15, 1995 issue of The Watchtower on pages 14 and 15 did the same thing:
“Today, almost five million members of the great crowd are living under the active leadership of the heavenly King Jesus Christ. They are in subjection to Christ and in close association with his anointed brothers yet on earth.”
The July 1, 1995 issue of The Watchtower on page 21 did the same thing:
“Since then, the emphasis has been on gathering the great crowd of other sheep, which today numbers almost five million.”
The few non-committal statements the JW's have made do little to undo what their organization has taught for over 50 years.