Posts by ellderwho

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

ellderwho

Undis;

Also, I do not believe in the concept of God forcing people to be saved, first of all, because the Bible shows that Jesus WANTED to save the Pharisees, but THEY would not have it:

Lets look at Jn 10;25

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father?s hand. 30I and the Father are one

Did the Father give the Pharisees to Jesus?. Can you yourself snatch yourself from the Fathers hand?

I do not believe in the concept of God forcing people to be saved

Ro.11:4;

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.

When did these 7000k decide to have "saving faith" as you put it?

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

When does the above remnant decide to have "saving faith"?

If we in the flesh can decide upon when we want to act on Gods calling, knowing all the while their is no good in any of us, means that we are responsible for a hand in our salvation which ultimately brings us to a works salvation and not by grace.

E

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

ellderwho

Herk,

I have asked you on different threads and this one, who created the Heavens and Earth.

You have simply ignored the question. All your time "copy and paste" diagrams to prove from other sources that the trinity should not be believed. With that said and the questions posed to you, what is the non-trinitarians explantion of 'who created the Heavens and Earth?

What is the non-trinitarians explanation of "who raised Jesus from the Dead"?

Jn.12:45And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me.

7If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works? sake.

Is Jesus an imposter? Or should Jesus' have said "he that beholdeth me beholdeth Yahweh"?

Or maybe Jesus should have said "If you've seen me you've seen Yahweh"

Is Jesus an imposter?

Phl.2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

38

Is Jesus inferior because it says that He will "be subject" in 1 Cor 15:28?

by hooberus in

"and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that god may be all in all.

" 1 corinthians 15:28. .

the watchower implies that since jesus is said to be "subject" unto "him that put all things under him" that therefore jesus is inferior to god, and the trinity is thus not true.

ellderwho

Prior to the time of "all things" being subjected to the Son, they were not in subjection to the Son, and therefore he could not have been Almighty God at that time.

Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made. Jn 1:3 International Standard

3All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. Jn 1:3 American Standard

16for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; 17and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. Col 1:16

they were not in subjection to the Son,

Did not the Son create these "things" ?

Again you cannot define who made what, lest your theology be exposed.

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

ellderwho

Good morning Dog,

"Should you believe in the Trinity"???

E

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

ellderwho

Undis,

I have to disagree as well.

If it was not required to know WHO the True Jesus Christ is, then why did Jesus ask that question?

You are implying onus is upon man. (IMHO the other "thief" knew who was hanging next to him)

The question should be asked ' what gives one faith in Jesus? A spiritually dead man has no faith.

On one hand your argument is that even the demons "know" Jesus. And then state one must know the "real" Jesus.

In order to be Born Again, a person must have "saving faith" -- put all of his trust, confidence, hope, faith, and belief in Jesus as his ONLY WAY to Salvation

Thats not what Jesus says to Nicodemus;

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit." Jn. 3:6

What part of the above statement indicates "a person must have "saving faith" --as his ONLY WAY to Salvation

By that reasoning your flesh is giving birth to your Spirit.

"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, you are now trying to attain your goal by human effort, Gal 3:3

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

ellderwho

If there is no such thing as mystery, perhaps you could tells us how God had no beginning and will have no ending. And how the universe was created out of nothing.

My point exactly, only less words.

I suspect we'll see a cartoon of this mystery.

E

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

ellderwho

awareness that Jesus was more than I had been taught.

Why does this sort of awareness happen? What do you do with this feeling?

This awareness/feeling of Christ starts to erode mans forced feeding of Jesus position.

Merely my Calvinstic .02

Are you saying then that it is possible to become a Christian without understanding the Trinity Doctrine? I am sure that you will agree that in order to believe this Doctrine it is necessary to understand it?

Twenty years after the Org while still holding most of Jw doctrine, I found myself wanting to know what the Org really taught which lead to reading the Bible "un-aided" then being "born again" while having this feeling of born again I struggled greatly with Jesus/God issue, but as I grew as a Christian and studying the Bible became a daily passion one starts to understand what the Bible presents to you. Or what the Bible teaches while not contradicting itself.

How are we as created going to figure out the creator who spoke the universe into existence?

I dont try and sell the trinity, whats the point? Ultimately one has to do something with Jesus. And that is always where trinity talk leads to "what to do with Jesus" Which than becomes very offensive to people, almost a "pharasical" response, ironic isnt it?

E

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

ellderwho

Herks chart, The above chart is from "Thunder Ministries" and the following is a quote in part from their mission statement; " We believe the Monarchian message that Jesus is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that as God, he is omnipresent meaning he can and does manifest himself in any place, at any time. If this were not so, just look at all the people who are filled with the "SAME" Holy Spirit, all over the world. We believe the doctrine clearly upholds the monotheistic message: (Deut:6:4, Isa:43:11, Isa:44:8, Isa:45:5-6, Isa:45:21, Isa:47:10, Hosea:13:4, Jn:1:1, 1:10, 1:14, Jn:14:9, Col:2:9, 1Tm:3:16). We refute the trinity doctrine, and any other man made doctrine which is contrary to the doctrine delivered of the Apostles." Hmmm no bias here.

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

ellderwho

Undis,

Sorry no diagram, Herk stole my thunder

Seriously I enjoyed it, a good read.

As a constant reminer of moms(jw) advise "if you keep reading that Kings James Bible you'll wind up believing in the trinity" Well she was right.

One thing I noticed in your post which I like to examine when discussing the triune nature, the creation subject. I've yet to see anyone tackle this part of scripture with success to dismantle the trinity.

Watch the anti-trinity folks grab straws to show who created what.

Also your points on shared glory. Very problematic for counter arguments.

If only the anti-trinitarians and cults could somehow get rid of Jesus. (well the cults did)

E

63

PLEASE HELP! Assist in 1914 Rebuttal...

by Jared in

ok, so i'm trying to just plant a tiny seed of doubt somewhere in the cracks of my mothers mind, but that woman has 'jehovah' tattooed on her chest!

anyway, i would not only like help for her benefit but also for my benefit.

so it all started when i questioned her about 1914.... i wrote to her: 'as you had suggested i wanted to do some research.

ellderwho

Scholar,

I place my faith on a certain, sustainable biblical chronology that has prophetic implications as in the spirit of Daniel.

What is substainable about the Watchtower Chronology and its inability to connect its own Neo-Babylon kings years of rules?

Ive asked this of you before and your response was " I'll give you my list if you give me yours"

The WT list is what you place your faith in.

E