PLEASE HELP! Assist in 1914 Rebuttal...

by Jared 63 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Jared

  Ok, so I'm trying to just plant a tiny seed of doubt somewhere in the cracks of my mothers mind, but that woman has 'jehovah' tattooed on her chest! Anyway, I would not only like help for her benefit but also for my benefit. So it all started when I questioned her about 1914...

  I wrote to her: 'as you had suggested I wanted to do some research. I didnt really know where to start. but I kinda just picked something. I started looking up 1914 in some of the books and the insight book. so I got that 1914 was calculated by the account in daniel where they took the seven times and applied each for a 365 day year which gave them 2520 years and that amount of years counted back from 1914 was 607 bc which marked the fall of jerusalem....ok, so I got that. so I looked up the account of the fall of jerusalem in the books and 607 was the date. then I looked jerusalem up online and in this encyclopedia and stuff and they all pointed to 586 or 587 being the date when babylonians took jeruslaem. did something happen in between which accounted for 607? let me know what you find.' She responded with: 'The 2520 years is calculated using 360 day years, since the Jews used the lunar calender. Just a small point. But the year 607 is counted back 70 years from the pivotal date of 539 when historians and Biblical history pinpoint Cyrus' destruction of Babylon. You can find info on pivotal dates, especially 539 in the All Scriptures Inspired book pages 282, paragraphs 28 and 29 and pg. 285, para. 5. If you don't have the SI book. let me know and I will e-mail you the info. In the Insight, pgs. 453-4 and 458, under Babylonian Chronology (vol. 1) and in vol. 2, pg. 459, under "Nabonidus" you will find secular evidence of the year 539 for Cyrus destruction of Babylon. It was shortly after that, in 537 bce, that Cyrus released the Jews to return to Jerusalem, thus ending the 70 year desolation, but not, of course, the "gentile times", that is the period of time that the gov't. rule without a ruler on God's throne.' Her response to my question completely confused me, which I am sure was its purpose. If you have any suggestions as to what to say in response or any details that might clear up the matter in my own mind, it would be much appreciated. THANK YOU!
• 

  RunningMan

  Here is the most comprehensive rebuttal of the 607 date that I've ever seen: http://www.disfellowshipped.org/607eng.htm

  It pretty much demolishes the date from the point of view of history, astronomy, archeology, and the Bible. It is pretty comprehensive.

  When I was having this discussion with my wife, I started with the encylopedia. I looked it up, and it was pretty clear that the date was 586. In fact, the Jews even know the specific date of the destruction of the temple (9th day of Av in the year 586 BC). So, why is the Society different? Well, the article covers it in detail.
• 

  Joyzabel

  First of all welcome to the board, Jared.

  Second, here are some quotes you need to be aware of:

  "when historians and Biblical history pinpoint Cyrus' destruction of Babylon" ....What historians and what source? Obtain a copy of "Gentile Times Reconsidered" by Carl Olof Jonnson and you'll get plenty of documented proof of when Cyrus destroyed Babylon. Not a made up date from the WT that NO ONE else agrees with.

  "You can find info on pivotal dates.......SI or Insight" hmmmmm, using their own material to prove a point is silly. But that is what she has be taught by the WT.

  If you don't have either "Gentile Times Reconsidered" or "Crisis of Concience" I highly recommend you get them and start your own research and not rely on others. www.commentarypress is where you can obtain these publications. Or click on the banner on top of this DB, it is a source to get those books.

  Have fun and good luck. We all here have been trying to crack whatever shells we can with our loved ones.

  Oh and another good book is by James Penton "Apocalyspe Delayed"

  Joy
• 

  OlSoddy

  yep thats right 586 is the date, not 607.
• 

  RunningMan

  And, look here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx

  for a brilliant and simple refutation of the 607 date, using the society's own words. 607 just doesn't add up.
• 

  City Fan

  Running man,

  You just beat me to it - that's a great thread to prove the fall of Jerusalem was 587/586 using the societies own publications.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx

  CF.
• 

  Farkel

  jarad,

  This piece I did years ago pretty much shows the insanity of the 607-1914 doctrine. And it's not very difficult to comprehend, either:

  "1914 for Dummies"

  607 B.C." - the fundamental date critical to supporting the entire JW framework of prophetic chronology. This date, unique to only JWs, has been rejected by virtually EVERY other Bible historian and archeologist.

  "1914" A.D. - the single most important date in JW doctrine, and is the result of using 607 B.C as an "anchor date", using the book of Daniel, Chapter 4, as proof.

  This is based upon the following, simple reasoning:

  7 "times" doesn't mean "7 times". It means "7 years".

  But,"7 years" doesn't really mean 7 "years", either. It means "7 years of days".

  But, the "days" in "years of days" doesn't really mean "years of days, in which the days actually mean "days", but means "years of days, in which the "days" actually mean "years".

  Therefore, it is easy for even a fool to see that "7 times" REALLY means "7 years" but which really means "7 years of days", but which then really means "7 years of days which aren't really days, but years", or simply stated "7 years of days of which days are really years". To put it even so a child can understand it, it means that the "times" aren't "times" at all, but are "years", which aren't "years" at all, but are "years of days", which aren't "days" at all, but are "years" AFTER all, even though they were originally CALLED "times"!

  Got all that? There's more.

  Strangely, however, for all of this to work, this fulfillment, based upon an ANCIENT text, still requires the use of the ANCIENT calendar for the MODERN fulfillment to work out to 1914. Therefore, ancient text + ancient calendar = modern date in modern calendar.

  When doing your calculations, don't forget that there is no "zero year" from B.C to A.D. C.T. Russell forgot that and was quite embarrassed about it. The official WTBS explanation in later, revised, editions of his books was that "the battery was very low in his calculator at that time" and he wasn't aware of it until after the material was printed.

  Lastly, the book of Daniel was prophesied to remain "sealed" until the "last days", which, as we know, began in 1914, according to the simple reasoning just presented. So, Russell had to figure out a way to, somehow "unseal" Daniel before it was prophesied that Daniel WOULD be "unsealed" so he could then put forth a prophecy which pointed to exactly when Daniel WAS to be "unsealed", namely at the start of the "last days", in 1914. Russell, therefore, successfully used a "sealed" book to calculate the exact date it was to be "unsealed", which at that time it was officially, "unsealed", but Russell "unsealed" it before that, because he wanted to know beforehand when it WOULD be "unsealed", because only THEN would he know when the "last days" were to start, which was, of course, when Daniel actually WAS to be "unsealed". Got all that?

  Farkel
• 

  TD

  But the year 607 is counted back 70 years from the pivotal date of 539 when historians and Biblical history pinpoint Cyrus' destruction of Babylon.

  Wrong -- counting 70 years back from 539 BC brings you to 609 BC. Her math is 2 years off. The JW's resolve this discrepancy (and preserve the 1914 date) by assuming that it would have taken the Jews two years to travel back to their homeland. Thus they really count back 70 years from the assumed date of 537, not the "pivotal" date of 539. This also requires further contortions to explain how the king of Babylon was "punished" in what was actually the 68th year of the desolation when the Bible clearly says that he would be punished only after the 70 years have been accomplished. You might want to see what her explanation is for the following verse: "And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations." Jer 25:12
• 

  garybuss

  Her response to my question completely confused me, which I am sure was its purpose. If you have any suggestions as to what to say in response

  
  Hey Jared, My experience keeps me from discussing doctrine or components like 1914 with Witnesses. That's their comfort area. It's like being in a pissing contest with a skunk and saying to the skunk, "Here let me get down to your level so you have a better shot at me.".
  
  I prefer to stick to assumptions, behaviors, and contradictions. I like the appointment doctrine and the mediator doctrine, the part of the blood doctrine that covers the allowed components, the Pay Attention book, the United Nations, the protection of the abusers, and the rich corporation.
  
  Witnesses I have talked to in the flesh shun me. It's a gift that keeps on giving:-) GaryB
  
  
  
  
• 

  heathen

  LMAO@Farkel --- Yah I got it , anybody else get it ? Daniel 4 was about king nebuchadnezzar becoming as a beast in the field for 7 yrs. and then being restored to his kingdom. There is no mention of the conclusion of gentile times no mention that God was not ruler of the earth as what Daniel stated that the most high is ruler of the earth always has been and always will be . Jesus claimed rulership in 33ce before his assention to heaven .