ellderwho

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Posts by ellderwho

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  18

  regular dub vs. 144K dub

  by ellderwho in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jw doctrine teaches that humans do not have a spirit that continues on after death......so.......... how is the element manifested inside the human form that enables a heaven bound witness to continue on to heaven?

  and why are they automatically given robes, and their clean and spotless before the lamb?

  since the great crowd dub has to work and wait for perfection does this mean christs' ransom was of greater value for the 144k?

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  ellderwho

  yadda

  Interesting questions.

  On your first question, I think JW's would say that those who are resurrected to heaven are created anew into spirit beings from God's memory. The JW's teach that all the dead are merely in God's memory, like a gigantic memory bank of everyone's DNA and personality blueprint I guess you could say, and when they are resurrected (to either heaven or earth) they are 'recreated'. There is no need for anything deathless in the body to survive for this to happen, JW's would say. I think the JW's view on this is pretty reasonable.

  Gods memory? I guess that would be the good memories, not the vile sinful thought patterns of a imperfect human. Any scripture that might come close to those ideas? So in the end the original human is replaced by a replica. Also the replica(clone) will be loaded with the capability to sin again. (during the 1000 years)

  Im no art collector. But I could tell you the value of a replica verses the original. Any scripture for those ideas?

  As for your question about earthly survivors of Armageddon, their answer would be that only those who are under the ransom can survive. JW's would say these ones are the Great Crowd who survive because of having white robes washed in the blood of the lamb.

  My point again is that anyone who survives Armageddon is in direct contradiction of Pauls words regarding sin and the wages of it. If that person survives Armageddon and makes it through to the end of the 1000 years, he would have escaped death resulting in scripture being null and void.

  What is perhaps a better question is why should everyone else who dies at Armageddon not receive a resurrection back to earth. What difference does the timing of their death make? It would be grossly unfair for God to resurrect billions who died before Armageddon but not those who die during Armageddon (unless they have committed the unforgiveable sin).

  See above

  But you make a good point though, which I think proves that everyone must die at Armageddon who is not covered by the ransom (BUT they will get a second chance by resurrection back to earth).

  Your missing the point, makes no difference regarding the ransom. You still have to die.
• 
  18

  regular dub vs. 144K dub

  by ellderwho in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jw doctrine teaches that humans do not have a spirit that continues on after death......so.......... how is the element manifested inside the human form that enables a heaven bound witness to continue on to heaven?

  and why are they automatically given robes, and their clean and spotless before the lamb?

  since the great crowd dub has to work and wait for perfection does this mean christs' ransom was of greater value for the 144k?

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  ellderwho

  elderwho: yes the ransom was of greater value to the 144 000 as they are considered heirs alongside with christ - they are his brothers & sisters, kings & priests just as christ is king & priest. Regular dubs, by association with his brothers, have the hope of being part of the great crowd that stream to the throne.

  How was the ransom greater? Any scripture for that?

  As for them changing into spirit form - nothing is impossible for Jehovah, he can do anything as he is god almighty -

  My point is something has to be generated from within the body. How can they change into a spirit being if there is not a spirit to begin with? Im not concerned with what God is capable of doing.

  Appointed to die: I think that scripture carries on to say "appointed to die once..." not too sure. The witnesses can interperate that to mean a spiritual death and not literal. Remember they are pretty good at choosing what is figurative and what is literal and will have their sneaky ways of "proving" this.

  The wages of sin is death. All have sinned and fallen short. Logically all will die. There is no escaping this death.
• 
  18

  regular dub vs. 144K dub

  by ellderwho in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jw doctrine teaches that humans do not have a spirit that continues on after death......so.......... how is the element manifested inside the human form that enables a heaven bound witness to continue on to heaven?

  and why are they automatically given robes, and their clean and spotless before the lamb?

  since the great crowd dub has to work and wait for perfection does this mean christs' ransom was of greater value for the 144k?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  ellderwho

  number 1,

  Also regarding armageddon, is the fact that making it through to the "new system" alive is in direct contradiction of what the Bible teaches as far as the wages of sin being death. And all men are appointed to die.
• 
  18

  regular dub vs. 144K dub

  by ellderwho in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jw doctrine teaches that humans do not have a spirit that continues on after death......so.......... how is the element manifested inside the human form that enables a heaven bound witness to continue on to heaven?

  and why are they automatically given robes, and their clean and spotless before the lamb?

  since the great crowd dub has to work and wait for perfection does this mean christs' ransom was of greater value for the 144k?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  ellderwho

  Jw doctrine teaches that humans do not have a spirit that continues on after death......so.........

  How is the element manifested inside the human form that enables a heaven bound Witness to continue on to heaven? And why are they automatically given robes, and their clean and spotless before the lamb?

  Since the great crowd dub has to work and wait for perfection does this mean Christs' ransom was of greater value for the 144K?
• 
  343

  Defence of watchtower society Links

  by reniaa in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.

  i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

  those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

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  ellderwho

  How many faiths could stand the sort of scrutiny this site gives the WTs?

  When a group claims to be the mouth peice of Yahweh, and fails miserably, what other result would you expect? Your captive of a concept.
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  343

  Defence of watchtower society Links

  by reniaa in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.

  i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

  those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

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  ellderwho

  Reniaa has hit an run on this thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/167153/21.ashx

  She was really pressed on some issues and just bailed.
• 
  343

  Defence of watchtower society Links

  by reniaa in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.

  i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.

  those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.

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  ellderwho

  Interesting little tidbit I found while sifting through this thread:

  Classic misconception of the Jw apologist...

  renia writes

  I know Jehovah's witnesses to be a changing org since I was a child refining process is a common practise for them,

  Look at how the witness claims an adapting faith, admiting the org has changed over the years.

  If the FDS has been getting there direction directly from Jehovah why the need for change, did someone in the towers not receive the information clearly?

  Does Jehovah have to repeat himself on the matter of who gets ressurected from the city of Sodom?

  A prophet of Jehovah has to have a 100% record of repeating exactly what saith the LORD. Or we are told to ingnore them.

  Oh the shifting sands of WT theology....Sad
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  421

  jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

  by reniaa in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

  17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

  "good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

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  ellderwho

  Sacolton, Not according to Joseph Malik
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  43

  More scandals...J.W. Satanic Ritual Abuse discussed on the call Sat. Nov. 8

  by kool aid man06 in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  our special guest on the conference call sat.

  nov. 8 at 7 p.m. est.

  will be former jehovah's witness heidi king, our correspondent in london england.

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  ellderwho

  Your the man "kool aid man" sorry I missed you at the convention, and Barb Anderson as well. Ive missed the last two years. BTW hows Manny, hopefully on his way out. I'll aways remember our deep discussion regarding the little "g" God of Jn 1:1

  Take care

  ellderwho
• 
  421

  jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

  by reniaa in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

  17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

  "good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

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  ellderwho

  When Jesus was resurrected ... did He become Michael the Archangel again? What happens to Jesus? Michael becomes Jesus again in 1914 to take his Heavenly throne?

  Sacolton, you might want to ask Joseph Malik. He seems to be the one with the handle on Christs Michaels atonement properties and who returns and who sits at the right hand.