jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    I thought after recently reading the bible I would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as God and anyone listening would also see it this way too.

    first mark 10 :17-20

    17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

    18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' [d] "

    20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

    why would jesus pick up the mans words if he actually was God?

    next math 4 :8-10

    8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

    10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' [d] "

    firstly why would satan offer Jesus kingdoms and splender if he thought jesus was god indeed why would he consider such stuff would tempt god enough to worship him? and why would jesus reply that way if he was God surely he would say worship only me or something to that effect?

    john 14 28:30

    28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. "Come now; let us leave.

    here jesus shows us that he never considers himself equal to god and obeys him.

    john 8:14-18

    14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

    here jesus s showing he fulfills the testimony law on two witnesses but which two? himself and his father...2 separate people testifying (not 3 in1) how could jesus say this if he was saying he was God? and in fact wouldn't jesus be giving false testimony here if he was in fact god?

    John 10: 31-37

    31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

    33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

    34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' [e] ? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.

    here jesus is accused of being God but he corrects them showing you can call many things God and then correctly identifying himself as God's son only. definitely a wasted opportunity for jesus to confirm all that trinititarians believe.

    These are just a sample of scriptures I find that really show that jesus is very separate from his father and even takes every opportunity not to be seen in anyway as equal to his father but here they are up for discussion to any who disagree.

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Inevitably when dialoguing with the Jehovah's Witnesses the subject of the Trinity needs to be
    addressed. In most cases, Jehovah's Witnesses will want to discuss this subject early.
    Usually it begins with them addressing the question about the divinity of Christ. In addition,
    the Jehovah's Witnesses in most cases have little knowledge about what the Trinity doctrine
    actually teaches since the Watchtower Society oftentimes greatly misrepresents the doctrine.
    For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses have published a booklet entitled
    Should You Believe in The Trinity? This booklet misquotes various scholars out of context and is filled with at the
    very least incompetent scholarship and at worst academic dishonesty.

    So, in order to effectively dialogue with the Jehovah's Witnesses on the Trinity, we, as
    Catholics need to be well-educated on what the Church teaches about the nature of God.
    Fortunately, we have the Catechism of the Catholic Church to assist us in this. So before
    engaging in any discussion of the Trinity with a Jehovah's Witness, I would recommend
    reading paragraphs 232-267 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is the best
    explanation of the doctrine of the Trinity that I have ever read.

    Secondly, I need to stress that the Watchtower accuses all Trinitarians of being modalists.
    Modalism is the belief of some that God is an actor. In other words, there are times that God
    will act in the mode of the Father and then at other times He will act in the mode of the Son, and
    other times He will act in the mode of the Spirit. So, God is one person who acts in different
    modes.

    Trinitarians reject this understanding of God's nature as heretical. Make sure you stress to the
    Jehovah's Witness that the Catholic understanding is that the persons of the Blessed Trinity
    are separate or as the Athanasian creed states: "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship
    one God in Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without confusing the persons or dividing the
    substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another;
    but the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty
    coeternal"
    The Jehovah's Witnesses View of GodFor the Jehovah's Witnesses, Almighty God is God the Father whose name is Jehovah. The
    Jehovah's Witnesses go to great pains to emphasize this including using the name Jehovah in
    their translation of the New Testament (The New World Translation) over 200 times even
    though there is no textual support for this. In other words, the name Jehovah is not found in
    the original Greek text of any of the New Testament books.

    Jesus for the Jehovah's Witnesses is the first creation of Jehovah. They teach that Jehovah
    created Jesus first and then Jehovah used Jesus to help him create the angels and the
    Universe including man. When Jesus came to earth, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses,
    Jesus was merely a perfect and sinless human and not God. The pre-human Jesus is
    identified as Michael the Archangel for the Jehovah's Witnesses. Some Jehovah's Witnesses
    will say that Jesus is divine only in the sense that he has some of the attributes of God but not
    all of them. So they will say that Jesus is a mighty god but is not the Almighty God.

    The Holy Spirit for the Jehovah's Witnesses is not even a person. For the Jehovah's Witness,
    the Holy Spirit is a force like electricity that Jehovah uses to accomplish his will.
    Using the New World TranslationThe Jehovah's Witnesses use their own translation called the New World Translation which
    has removed some but not all of the references to Jesus' Deity. When I was leaving the
    Jehovah's Witnesses I used this translation primarily and it was, ironically, the use of this
    translation that convinced me that the Trinity doctrine was true.
    Step 1: Is Jesus Michael the Archangel?The answer from the Jehovah's Witnesses own Bible has to be "No!". Note the following:

    1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means
    of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he
    appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the
    reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all
    things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down
    on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So he has become better than the angels, to
    the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. 5 For example, to which
    one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And
    again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”? 6 But when he
    again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do
    obeisance to him.” Hebrews 1:1-6 New World Translation

    Notice how their own Bible says that Jesus is more excellent than an angel. And, that no angel
    has been referred to as the son of God in the manner that Jesus has.

    So, if Jesus is not an angel then what is he? Hebrews 1:3 in the New World Translation states
    that he is the "exact representation of his [God the Father's] very being." This means that
    Jesus is made out of the same "stuff" as God the Father. Paul backs this up in the following
    scripture as rendered in the New World Translation:

    "8 Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the
    philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the
    elementary things of the world and not according to Christ; 9 because it is in him that all the
    fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily."-Colossians 2:8, 9

    Note that St. Paul says that Jesus has in him "
    ALL of the fullness of the divine quality". I
    usually set up this scripture by asking my Jehovah's Witness friend if it would be true to say
    that someone who has all of the qualities of God could be said to be fully divine. I then ask if
    someone is considered to have all of the qualities of God would that not make that person
    God? Then, I read this scripture in their own Bible which clearly states that Jesus is
    completely divine and therefore, completely God.
    The Holy Spirit is a PersonIn general, most people would agree that a person is someone who has the characteristics of
    intellect and will. Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Holy Spirit is a person, do we see
    any evidence in their Bible that the Holy Spirit is a person and displays these characteristics of
    intellect and will? The answer is "YES!"

    "1 Now in Antioch there were prophets and teachers in the local congregation, Bar´na·bas as
    well as Sym´e·on who was called Ni´ger, and Lucius of Cy·re´ne, and Man´a·en who was
    educated with Herod the district ruler, and Saul. 2 As they were publicly ministering to
    Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Bar´na·bas and Saul apart for me
    for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then they fasted and prayed and laid their hands
    upon them and let them go." -Acts 13: 1- 3 New World Translation

    Here is one example where the Holy Spirit demonstrates the characteristics of intellect and will
    by choosing (something without intellect and will would have a difficult time choosing
    anything) to send Paul and Barnabas to a special job. Notice, the Holy Spirit even refers to
    himself with the personal pronoun "I". I often tell my Jehovah's Witnesses friends that if the
    Holy Spirit thinks himself to be a person as demonstrated by this verse then that is enough
    proof to me that He is a person and not some impersonal force.

    One of the most powerful impressions that one can make with a Jehovah's Witness is to
    demonstrate from their own Bible that Jesus is equated with Jehovah. There are numerous
    scriptures that do this. If you can get a copy of the New World Translation Reference Bible
    published in 1984, the impression is even more powerful because of the footnotes.

    When showing this to your Jehovah's Witness friend remember that they believe that Jehovah
    is God the Father and that he is more powerful than Jesus. In addition, they believe that it is a
    sin to worship Jesus and that all worship should go only to the Father. In fact, a Jehovah's
    Witness can be excommunicated merely for praying to Jesus. In any case here some very
    good examples from the New World Translation that equate Jesus with Jehovah in a way that
    many Jehovah's Witnesses would consider blasphemous. Example #1In Hebrews chapter 1, the author of Hebrews goes to great lengths to tell us that Jesus is no
    mere angel. That there is something very special about the person who is the "
    exact
    representation
    of God's very being." Notice what the author of Hebrews states in the
    following verses about the Son. Pay particular attention to the section that is underlined by
    me:

    8 But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of
    your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated
    lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than
    your partners.” 10 And: “
    You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself,
    and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you
    yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and
    you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you
    are the same, and your years will never run out.
    ”-Hebrews 1:8-12

    The underlined section is a quotation from Psalm 102. In the New World Translation it states
    the following about the purpose of Psalm 102:

    "A prayer of the afflicted in case he grows feeble and pours out his concern before Jehovah
    himself."

    So, this Psalm is a prayer to Jehovah. Notice how the Psalmist refers to Jehovah in verses 25
    and 26:

    "25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself, And the heavens are the work of
    your hands. 26 They themselves will perish, but you yourself will keep standing; And just like
    a garment they will all of them wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will
    finish their turn." -Psalms 102:25, 26 New World Translation

    Here we see the author of Hebrews taking a scripture from the book of Psalms that is a prayer
    to Jehovah and applying this to the identity of Christ! In short, the author of Hebrews is
    equating Jesus with Almighty God. This is blasphemous unless of course Jesus truly is
    Almighty God.
    Example #2Another example of this is when Jesus entered Jerusalem. According to the New World
    Translation the following occurred:

    "6 So the disciples got on their way and did just as Jesus ordered them. 7 And they brought
    the ass and its colt, and they put upon these their outer garments, and he seated himself upon
    them. 8 Most of the crowd spread their outer garments on the road, while others began cutting
    down branches from the trees and spreading them on the road. 9 As for the crowds, those
    going ahead of him and those following kept crying out: “Save, we pray, the Son of David!
    Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!”-
    Matthew 21:6-9

    Now in the New World Translation the people were crying out to Jesus "Save, we pray, the
    Son of David!" The phrase "Save, we pray!" is also translated as Hosanna which is a word
    that Catholics are familiar with because we use it in prayer to God. Jews also used this word
    only when addressing Yahweh (Jehovah) in prayer. Now, the Jewish religious leaders were
    greatly offended by what the crowds were saying to Jesus because they viewed this as
    blasphemy that is why they said the following to Jesus:

    "When the chief priests and the scribes saw the marvelous things he did and the boys that
    were crying out in the temple and saying: “Save, we pray, the Son of David!” they became
    indignant 16 and said to him: “Do you hear what these are saying?”-Matthew 21:15, 16

    The Jewish religious leaders were obviously upset that the people were addressing Jesus as
    if he were Jehovah. They wanted Jesus to put a stop to such blasphemy. Is that what Jesus
    did? Well, here is Jesus' response:

    "Jesus said to them: “Yes. Did YOU never read this, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings
    you have furnished praise’?” 17 And leaving them behind he went outside the city to
    Beth´a·ny and passed the night there."Matthew 21:16, 17

    Notice how Jesus did not stop the people from referring to him in that way. In fact his
    response to the Jewish religious leaders was to quote a scripture from the book of Psalms.
    Jesus quotes to them from Psalm 8:2 which says the following in the New World Translation:

    "1 O Jehovah our Lord, how majestic your name is in all the earth, You whose dignity is
    recounted above the heavens! 2 Out of the mouth of children and sucklings you have founded
    strength, On account of those showing hostility to you, So as to make the enemy and the one
    taking his vengeance desist. "-Psalms 8:1, 2

    So, Jesus' response was not to silence the crowd but to apply to himself a scripture that
    applied to Yahweh (Jehovah)!

    These are only two of many, many examples. Now, when you show this to your Jehovah's
    Witness friend emphasize that Jesus and God the Father are different persons but they are
    equal in nature as Almighty God.

    hitcounter alt

    Discussing The Trinity With
    Jehovah's Witnesses

    http://www.catholicxjw.com/Trinity1.html

    http://www.catholicxjw.com/Trinity2.html

    Go away, Reniaa.

    StAnn

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi st Ann

    lol I spend about an hour pouring over the bible to find scriptures personal to my own reasons for not believing jesus is god and you just, cut and paste the catholic catachism at me basically wt for catholics without addressing any of my scriptures well fair enough, but I do thankyou for posting I was beginning to think my thread would just disappear certainly doctrinal discussions are no longer what this forum seems to be about anymore.

    By the way I do know what modalism is - is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons in God Himself. but my scriptures allow for trinity as well as modalism to be questioned unless your saying that as Son the God part of the Godhead jesus didn't know he was God?

    reniaa

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    StAnn..Well done!..BravoBravoBravo.................................Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Funny how john (1:1) said that he was, eh? A bit of a contradiction, i would hazard;)

    S

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi satanas

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NIV

    John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.NWT

    This rendering is preferred among popular English translations today. However, this is not universal in usage among scholarly translations. Translations by James Moffatt, Hugh J. Schonfield and Edgar Goodspeed render it:

    "...and the Word was divine."

    Other variations also exist:

    There are additional translations that render John 1:1c in a similar manner. An example of such translations includes The New World Translation published by Jehovah's Witnesses which renders part of John 1:1 as "...and the word was a god" [3] [4]

    Two issues need to be remembered as regards the original text. First, old Greek manuscripts of the Bible are in capital letters only. Second, the word theos in the original text cannot grammatically have the definite article. [5] John 10:35 has similar usage of Greek word theos (god), with and without ho (the) when describing human rulers as "gods".

    [edit] Difficulties

    There are two issues affecting the translating of the verse, theology and proper application of grammatical rules. The commonly held theology that Jesus is God naturally leads one to believe that the proper way to render the verse is the one which is most popular. [6] The opposing theology that Jesus is subordinate to God as his Chief agent leads to the conclusion that "...a god" is the proper rendering. [7] Some scholars staunchly oppose the translation ...a god, [8] [9] [10] while other scholars believe it is possible or even preferable. [11] [12] [13]

    this is a contraversial scripture that can be rendered 2 ways possibly 3 depending on your viewpoint and inclination, it is by no means cut and dried as would first appear.

    Also this is john speaking on jesus, in my choice of scripture I was trying to show jesus had ample opportunity to say he was God or agree and never did, in fact kept correcting others when such occasions occurred.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    So?

    S

  • reniaa
    reniaa
    So?

    S

    If it can be rendered so as to show the Word is not actually God then it really isn't a Good scripture to make a doctrine by and as I said above this is john speaking on jesus but when Jesus had opportunity and chance he refused to be acknowledged as God and always stressed God was greater than he himself.

  • startingover
    startingover

    If you really want to make sense of it all, view it just as you would Greek mythology, because after all the bible is nothing more than Hebrew mythology.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Well then, if he isn't THE GOD, then he is a slightly smaller god, according to john, no?

    S

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