Posts by ellderwho

117

Is It Possible To Reason With A Typical Jehovah's Witness?

by minimus in

jw
friends

from what i can see, it's nearly impossible to reason with a witness, even if you might consider them somewhat intelligent.

ellderwho

As far as reasoning, I think its case by case. A Jw will tell certain things about themselves and not even realize when conversing about "worldy" afairs.

Im certain, things that are said around me are not things that would be repeated at the Hall. While studying with moms husband, many times Ive picked up on little things when discussing scripture that would definately indicate he was doubting the Org.

He even went as far to say "I wouldnt say that in mixed company" (flip flop on Sodom&Gamorah)

Now my mom is more emotional, when I back her in a corner, the ole "evil slave class" label starts to fly.

So its definately case by case.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Ellderwho said:
Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?
Acts 17:30: Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

God commands that all men everywhere repent.

So! Do all men repent?

Your not answering my question.

Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?

Posting Acts 17:30 has nothing to do with the question.

Luke 13:1-9: There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"
Jesus warned people that they MUST choose to repent or perish. Jesus also gave a Parable that shows that Jesus waits a certain period of time (however long He chooses) for people to repent before He "cuts them down."

You quote Luke 13:1-9 highlighting 7-9.In the OT a tree was a symbol of godly living. Ps. 1:3 Jer. 17:7,8. I believe this is symbolic of Israel. Israel rejected Christ saying;

" His blood be on us, and our children" Matt 27:5.

I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

So! Will we repent without the Holyspirit?

Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?

Revelation 2:15-16: Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Is that not a choice Jesus gave -- "Repent or else"?

Revelation 2:14
'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.......Another reference to Israels idol worship.

Revelation 2:15
'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

Revelation 2:16
'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

2 Thessalonians 2:8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

Revelation 1:16In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

Again what makes us repent? Is it our own nature? Or does the HolySpirit move us to repentance? They way you view repentance IMHO is that its something of our on accord.

Rev 2:16 says "Repent or else I am coming to you" Do you think if humans do not repent, he (Jesus) will not come with judgement of his(Jesus) mouth?

We have discussed Jezebel before;

Revelation 2:20-23: Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

2 Kings 9:34
When he came in, he ate and drank; and he said, "See now to this cursed woman and bury her, for she is a king's daughter."

2 Kings 9:35
They went to bury her, but they found nothing more of her than the skull and the feet and the palms of her hands.

2 Kings 9:36
Therefore they returned and told him. And he said, "This is the word of the LORD, which He spoke by His servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, 'In the property of Jezreel the dogs shall eat the flesh of Jezebel;
2 Kings 9:37
and the corpse of Jezebel will be as dung on the face of the field in the property of Jezreel, so they cannot say, "This is Jezebel.""'

When was Jezebel given time to repent?

unless they repent of their deeds.

Does your God know if they will repent on their own?

Now, check out Acts Chapter 8:
Acts 8: 22-23: Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
This person had already been enlightened with the truth by God in Acts 8:13, but was definitely NOT Born Again.

Acts 8:16
For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 8:17
Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:18
Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

Acts 8:19
saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

Acts 8:20
But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!Acts 8:21
"You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.

Acts 8:22
"Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

Acts 8:23
"For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."

Acts 8:24
But Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."

Simon the sorcerer was a deceiver Acts 8:9 Although he was baptized with water it was not the HolySpirit. I believe Simon has head knowledge but he's not converted.

You state Simon was "enlightened" in Acts 8:13 show me where!

Acts 8:13
Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

The above says nothing about God "enlightening" him.

Many people today are confessed believers. But what do they believe in? As in Simons case he amazed people with sorceries. An was considered a "believer". Kinda like a Benny Hin.

Acts 8:23-24 Simon doesnt asked to be saved. And says nothing about Simon praying for his salvation. He just askes that nothing bad happens to him. And scripture does not state that he comes to Christ.

Rehashing Hebrews again:

Paul says that people who have been enlightened and have become partakers of The Holy Spirit can fall away to Hell.

Then I will rehash Romans:

Romans 7:17
So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. Is Paul going to Hell?

Romans 7:19
For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. Is Paul going to hell?
Romans 7:20
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. Is Paul going to Hell?

Paul is again saying that Spirit-enlightened persons can "draw back" away from God to perdition, and no longer be pleasing God.

Romans 7:21
I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. Is Paul going to Hell?

Romans 7:22
For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Romans 7:23
but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Is Paul going to Hell?

Romans 7:24
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Well, is Paul going to hell?
My earlier post:

Ellderwho said:
John 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God........ Is this by choice?

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Is this by choice??
John 3:8
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
When is a choice made available?
Those Verses do not mention a choice, but others do (I will highlight my points in Bold):

Explain to me why those verses DO NOT mention a choice being made available?

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Matthew 3:5-12: Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
John the Baptist not only said that those Pharisees and Sadducees ["Broods of Vipers"] had the choice to repent, John also baptized them in water "unto repentance", and he said that Jesus would baptize them with The Holy Spirit.

Undis, I believe John was saying here in verses 7,8 that you cant just go through the act of baptism, there must be evidence of a new life,there must be fruits of the Spirit in your life.

Question, do you bear fruits of the Spirit without the Holy Spirit?

Luke 3:7-9: Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Were those Pharisees ["Broods of Vipers"] not given a choice to repent and to flee from the wrath?

I believe John was addressing the multitudes not specifically the Pharisees. Also these people wanted baptism for the escape of eternal punishment, not Gods salvation. Thats why John has harsh words for the multitudes. They were just looking for a insurance policy.

You missed a Verse along those same lines:
John 6:44: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I missed alot of verses that show predestination. Im simply trying to blend the thought that If no one can come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none that are given to the Son will not be lost, (or snatched from his hand) then how could your position with Hebrews and 2Peter apply?

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Undis

But notice, it is NOT simply "hear and you will live!" it is actually "hear AND BELIEVE and you will live!"

John 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God........ Is this by choice?

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Is this by choice??

John 3:8
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

When is a choice made available?

Matt. 9:11
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

John 6:37
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

Where in the above scriptures am I given a time to ponder this calling of God?

Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?

Where is it taught in scripture that I can reject Gods will?

E.

21

30 Years a WT Slave

by uriah in

i have just finished reading this book.

i imagined that it was a story about slavery at bethel.

how wrong i was.

ellderwho

I know my dad read it around ' 67 shortly thereafter left the org, mom said that was the reason why. She still active.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Undis,
What are your responses to John chapter 5. From page 8 and 9???

E.

96

587 BC for Total Dunderheads

by Farkel in

if you're a dunderhead on neo-babylonian history (like me) you've probably remained totally clueless whenever the subject of the chronology leading to back 607 b.c.

since i had nothing better to do today, i decided to finally take the time it takes to understand why dub chronology on that date is wrong.

this piece of information alone should give you a clue about how bored i am!.

ellderwho

Alleymom-------The WT literature I cited says that each king reigned for so many years ( or months). Are you saying that information is incorrect? If you read the articles you will see that the Society was not saying, "Here is the traditional chronology, but we do not endorse it." No, not at all. The articles say that King So-and-So ruled "x" years, and they present this as factual information. Are you saying this information from the Society is not accurate?

First of all nice to hear from you. Though I havent read the intire thread its funny how we wind up with the same result for Scholars' support of the WT chronology. The dreaded kings list which throughly exposes the Towers time line of Neo-Babylonian rules.

Im no "scholar" but I do understand the basic principles of math. When I pressed scholar for his Babylonian kings list he was unable to produce!

Once again the Towers own literature is its own demise!

Dam paper trails.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Undis,

What are your responses to John chapter 5. From page 8 and 9???

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Undis,

With John Chapter 5 look also at what Jesus tells the disciples in Matthew 13:9-11

9
"He who has ears, let him hear."

10
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"

11
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

We all have ears, but if "it" is not given to you how will you know?

E

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

I think it is pretty obvious that Lazarus had been Born Again and saved while he was living.

Okay lets go with that.

Could Lazarus make the choice to be brought back to life in this world?. And then die again. Either way Lazarus is present with the Lord 2Cor.5:8 in death or life.

Christ re-unites Lazarus' spirit with his body Lazarus has no choice in this action.

Jo.5:21 Jesus gives life to whom he wills, not who wills it.

Was Lazarus raised in a "glorified body"? No so this cannot be a physical reference of the ressurection to come. Jesus wept for the living not the dead.

As Christ' ressurection he left the grave clothes behind, where Lazarus wears them out.

My point is how could Lazarus choose to be spiritually ressurected. With Jo. 5:21 in that the ressurection spoken of is spiritual it has to be with 5:24 making the point.

A physically dead person can not hear.

A spiritually dead person can not hear either! (Gods word that is)

5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 5: 24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Notice in the above, the fact that you can hear Gods word is the sign a person has already passed from death, to life. "Hath" is the key word. E.