come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
Was the tree a catalyst, or were the ingredients thereof such that created a reaction in the soul of man by combination?
Comments to come.
LT, and others, you'll have to excuse me at this time, for a brief examination of my life. You see I turn 40 on Sunday.
E.--orty
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
LT: Why do you call the tree a "sin catalyst"?
Surely Adam could have just as easily broken God's law by not tending for the garden, or by not having children?
Where there is law there is responsibility to uphold it.
We have to agree Adams relationship with the Father prior to the fall was what it should have been.
My point is, not tending of the garden or filling the earth couldnt reveal "good and bad." To become "like us" knowing good and bad reveals something more.
Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
To have an "object" of knowing something, like the tree, is telling in that this "evil" was present and alive and well. And obtainable.
Did God make sin available? Why put the tree there anyway?
E.
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
I think your missing the point.
Adam could say any of that, but it would not negate his own responsibility in the matter.
Why would God have the tree in the garden to begin with? If Gods knows the outcome.
Why introduce a "sin catalyst" ?
The associated verses are only to show that God wields/commands the darkness that he created.
KJV; Psalms 104:20
Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep [forth].
E.
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
LT, goodmorning,
Where does scripture say he created darkness?
Psalms 104:20
You appoint darkness and it becomes night,
In which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.
Psalms 105:28
He sent darkness and made it dark;
And they did not rebel against His words.
Psalms 139:12
Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You.
Isaiah 45:7
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these
Jeremiah 13:16
Give glory to the LORD your God,
Before He brings darkness
And before your feet stumble
On the dusky mountains,
And while you are hoping for light
He makes it into deep darkness,
And turns it into gloom.
On the subject of the tree of good and evil;
LT: That still doesn't make him the author or creator of sin. That is the responsiblity (with it's repercussions) of the creature alone.
Could not Adam say to God "why did you put a tree in the garden that stumbled me'?
Im sure Adam and Eve had discussions like, if it wasnt for that tree, or why would the LORD allow that snake to talk to us?
E.
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
You expressed concern about "wordplay" in a previous post but, alas, that is all you really have to go on with this one. Hence we are permitted a difference of opinion. I emphasise, again, that the following is merely my position on what I understand scripture to be saying, regardless of how "certain" my comments may appear to be
Are you reffering to Ro.9:17, Is it all I have to go on, and for what point?
The only "word play" available is the injection of a point that is very weak. Question, was Paul really conveying the glorification of Gods name, or was Paul implying that Pharoah had no choice whatsoever? Hence reprobate from the start.
I am certain Pauls message conveys Gods ability to choose and mans inability to choose.
Whether or not Pharoah, Esau, etc., are ultimately of the reprobate is neither here nor there to me. I reiterate again that my only contention is that scripture doesn't state that they were predestinated such.
LT, they are predestained to reprobation by default. What other senario is their?
God foreordains all that comes to pass (including the sins of the Elect) but that doesn't make Him the author of sin nor does it mean that He predestineated everything. Predestination applies to certain specific bounds, which He set.
Then by this evil can overcome good. Because your position has God reacting to sin.
The scripture you're highlighting is Col 1:16: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" KJV (sidebar, This is Jesus being spoken of as the creator. - Read it and weep WTS)
I'm sorry, but I don't think this scripture has a direct bearing on the point of "sin" at all. Sure, He created all things, including power structures, devolving authority to governments and rulers, etc., but it is the creatures themselves that have abused such authority, not Him.
Your evading the question, what is inclusive of principalities and powers? On the same thought what was everything made that was made inclusive of?
Ok if its just the creatures that have abused authority where or how was such capacities attained?
No dilemma at all. At the end of the sixth day, what did God say (Gen.1:31)?
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." KJV
IMHO "sin" entered into creation after this point.
Really? Because the tree (good and evil) was part of everything made, was it in the garden before the sixth day? And why would it be considered something very good?
No hurry on the Rom.1:28 and Gal.2:17
Ro.1:28 are you implying God was waiting for these folks to see the err of their way?
v32 although they know Gods righteous decrees that those who do such things deserve death,"
I dont see the point (little help here)
Gal2:17 I think v21 sums it up.
E.
it's been a year since i started my job at wal-mart.
it has been an eye opening experience how they treat their workers.. here is one the ways they cut costs.
i was hired as a sales clerks which is the lowest paid position.
Anyone seen this, people actually getting married at wal-mart. =bad for America.
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
I find no scripture that supports your assertion that God predestinated the reprobate.
Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
OK, when shown this scripture before you said " it means to glorify Gods name"
Then I pressed you futher, and you reply:
It seems to me you cannot except that Pharoah was "predestined" foreordained, whatever, to do a specific thing for God.Oh, I can do that alright (predestinate and/or foreordain), as per my comments on Acts, to DDog.
My ONLY issue is concerning God's predestining people to reprobation.
Am I missing something here? Pharoah was in everyway a reprobate was he not? Are you afraid to entertain the thought that God designed this Pharoah for this very purpose?
How much more reprobate can one be, by Pharoahs actions? Or Judas, Esau?
Romans 9:18
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
At what point in creation will you explain to me, does God do the hardening of the reprobate as you would have it.
Maybe I've picked you up wrong, but that appears to be the God that you are describing to me as your own.
I'm afraid that the "mercy" that is evidenced by such a God appears only to be skin deep, since it would seem there's an ulterior motive that has little to do with compassion at all.
Perhaps, Then I give you:
Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
What are the principalities and powers spoken of in Colossians? They cannot just be the good attributes that come to mind first while reading the passage.You're wandering into other scriptures, now, but I agree with you in principle.
Well then, what are the principalities? And why would you agree in principle? (the wandering is trying to show a point)
What does "everything made that was made" include in John chapter one. Again this cannot just be the nice little things in life.I agree. Once more, though, you attempt to put words in my mouth. I'd rather you didn't do that, thanks. But once more I also state that you need to be careful where you lay the blame for certain actions.
Sorry you feel that way.
IMHO This has nothing to do with attempting to insert words, by conclusion you end up facing a dilema, did God create the bad things too? And how far reaching is this? And your reply will be ??
E.
watchtower chronology suffers from weak logical links.
after all, they start with an unproven premise and begin linking and linking and linking and suddenly they produce the rabbit out of the hat.
1914 is the rabbit .
Scholiar,
Yawn, You have nothing, no kings list that streeeeeeeeetches WT years of kings rule. Until you do, do not try to eat at this table.
E.
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
Sorry bro, are you confused?
Well lets see, some of your statments leaves me wondering what your definition is of Gods total sovereignty.
Things that are permitted rather than actively being directed
How would you know what things fall into the above catagories, being you are limited by human perceptions.
There are numerous, countless examples of God using people in scripture to do his will, while these people probably had no idea what Gods plans would result in. Much like myself. I really dont know the hardships or blessing God has in store.
Because of Gods sovereignty I realize things are set in time, everything. Begining to end. Whether its an evil occurance or a blessing.
With your reasoning (things permitted/actively directed) you have to concur that God does not have a blind spot. Thus your catagories are really one catagory.
It matters not what our preceptions are of wether something is fair or not. In this world that is full of suffering. Everything has to be by Gods design.
What are the principalities and powers spoken of in Colossians? They cannot just be the good attributes that come to mind first while reading the passage.
What does "everything made that was made" include in John chapter one. Again this cannot just be the nice little things in life.
You'd need to define "decree" for me. I agree with the statement, if you are including things which He permits
Decree=Ordain.
Did not God allow the serpent to have its way?He permitted it, but it wasn't HIm that directed the serpent what to do.
If He permitted it then he approved of it. Because God is not set in time. Thus already knew the outcome of creating the serpent/Lucifer.
You see it cannot be both ways, God is the author of EVERYTHING. Its a small camp to be in, I realize this, however in the end its Gods world not mine.
E.
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
DDog:Paul argues that the "vessels of wrath" have no argument, because God has the right to make them as He will, if He so desires.I feel a bit of confusion in the air.
He doesn't ever state that God made them that way, though.
Because God digs into the same lousy lump of clay to make pots of mercy, reveals we are all on our way to destruction. God is the author of everything. How could something exist or have a chance of existing without Gods foreknowledge, sin, principalities, powers, thrones, its all him. How could it not be?
IMHO anything less puts God in a box.
LT,
The question is, is it His active or passive will, when folks sin?
Does not God do things just because?
What is passive will? Is that kinda like being "passive aggressive"
God's lack of interferance, concerning misery and evil, is something I can't get my head around.
Im sure the generations of Jews that were inslaved by Egypt felt the same way.
Its for Gods glory. Anything less is God in a box.
You're the first person I've met who wanted to argue that God was the author of sin (but maybe you have company with EW ).
Im with brother Dog. God decrees everything. Yes sin too.
Man got his original nature from God, but it was man that distorted it.
Did not God allow the serpent to have its way? Or did the snake catch everyone by surprise?
Michelle,
I suspect this chewing on solid food may seem a bit argumentive, I assure you it is not. Like LT says "the devils in the details."
E.
